End of the Universe Part Two

[Moira]

That's fine MsMittens but you and your examples are an exception to the rule. Most people who dismiss the bible out of hand have not studied it. I don't believe in "religions" either for that matter.

dalek the reason why the bible is so enduring and so many "otherwise intelligent people" do believe in it, is because the way it ties up known facts to what is written can best be described as uncanny. Just like the existence of God, for centuries learned theologians have argued and discussed the bible yet no-one is able to prove it is outright fantasy, and different slants on the same story still don't make it fake.

[MrLinus]

That's fine MsMittens but you and your examples are an exception to the rule. Most people who dismiss the bible out of hand have not studied it. I don't believe in "religions" either for that matter.

What makes you think that we are the exception to the rule? Is their empirical evidence to the contrary? My experience has been that those that are atheist have studied the Bible and/or other religious texts so they are able to argue better. In fact, I've found them to be more knowledgeable about the Bible than those that "promote it".

I did a search to see if I could find any studies that would support that many atheists have read the Bible but didn't find anything specific. But I did find a lot of atheists websites, including American Atheists, that does indicate that many atheists (and agnostics) have read the Bible or are encouraged to do so. I believe this gets into the idea of the knowledge basis (that is, wanting proof one way or another) that often is part of being an atheist.

[dalek]

however I would suggest most people who dismiss the thought out of hand haven't even opened the bible, much less studied it.

I figured you would take this tact..to me this screams sanctimony, if I haven't read the bible well then I am ignorant and therefore incapable of understanding the words of God.....a tad arrogant me doth think. You are obviously very pious or overly zealous, either way you show an intolerance for other's beliefs and in your own argument incapable of understanding those who wish not to believe, so for that matter it's a we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

[bballad]

so let me get this straight, the Universe is only (acoreding to some caluclations, not takeing into consideration most of hawkings work) 14mly old, and we see light 28mly's away(or some such)...and you are suprised (the objects are accelerating away form each other). Look tiem is not one straight line, a better abstactation would be a grid, evn better would be a grid curved into a sphere....read a short history of time, it will help.

[Moira]

What makes you think that we are the exception to the rule? Is their empirical evidence to the contrary?

Oh come on ..... the sight of people at work sitting glued to their horoscopes whilst avoiding walking under ladders and dissing everything to do with religion is one reason I don't think, I know that most people are just disinterested in God. Church attendance is at an all time low .... we're all much more likely to spend the evening at a computer or watching TV than discussing and reading the bible. These are not false accusations, they come directly and openly from the very people I'm using as an example.

figured you would take this tact..

You're pushing me to take this tact .... you're pushing me into a corner, which is fine, I don't mind - but don't then complain.

I'm very tolerant of other people's beliefs but the trouble these days is they just don't seem to have any. What saddens me most is disinterest, the closed minds, nowhere is there a spark of hope that somewhere someone is fascinated or interested in the kind of facts pointed out in this article. (I'm not including anyone here clearly.) Even a disagreement means people are thinking rather than just refusing to go down this road at all.

What exactly did you mean when you said over-pious and over-zealous, or was that just some random insult?

bballad I'm not surprised, I don't know enough to be surprised or otherwise, but clearly enough people are to make it into a news article like this. You think there's a simple explanation?

I figure superficially that as nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, how can the horizon of our universe be 28m light years apart when it's only been in existence for 14m years? If there's a simple explanation then I don't see it.

[MrLinus]

Oh come on ..... the sight of people at work sitting glued to their horoscopes whilst avoiding walking under ladders and dissing everything to do with religion is one reason I don't think, I know that most people are just disinterested in God. Church attendance is at an all time low .... we're all much more likely to spend the evening at a computer or watching TV than discussing and reading the bible. These are not false accusations, they come directly and openly from the very people I'm using as an example.

That doesn't mean disinterest in God. That would suggest to me a disinterest in religion. Reading the Bible doesn't bring you closer to God. Faith is what God is; not the written word.

That doesn't mean that those that are Atheist, however, haven't read the Bible. It just means that they do not find organized religion interesting or having a place for them.

[dalek]

What exactly did you mean when you said over-pious and over-zealous, or was that just some random insult?

Not at all, unless you are insulted that I got them mixed up, to me a pious person is one who is unshakeable in their faith and a zealous person is one who tries to convert everyone else regardless of what they may "think", maybe using the preposition "over" was off base...

[Moira]

They're disinterested in God, take it from me. I have to work with these morons. And don't bite! I know I shouldn't call the kind of conversation I hear on a Monday morning moronic but there's only so much Big Brother, David Beckham and Neighbours I can take. They aren't interested in religion, God, or Windows Vista.

Nobody said they were Atheist. That doesn't do them justice! Atheism implies a careful study and a conclusion reached from it. For a massive part of the population religion, either organised or otherwise has no place in their lives, nor have the christian values that go with it.

Edit My dictionary described zealous as fanatical .... I wouldn't say I was fanatical on the subject but I enjoy the chance to maybe challenge people's thinking by using anything that I come across like the linked article if necessary. On a forum named "Cosmos" where people can choose to take part or ignore, I think that's fair enough, but I wouldn't annoy people in everyday life by shoving religion down their throats or anything. But in the same way that I have to be tolerant of people with no interest in religion or God, so I would expect that courtesy to be returned.

[MrLinus]

They're disinterested in God, take it from me. I have to work with these morons. And don't bite! I know I shouldn't call the kind of conversation I hear on a Monday morning moronic but there's only so much Big Brother, David Beckham and Neighbours I can take. They aren't interested in religion, God, or Windows Vista.

Why do people have to have interest in religion, God or Windows Vista? I fail to see the connection to the discussion we started, which was on atheists and whether they read the Bible or not. Just because their interests don't match yours doesn't mean that what they discuss is less importance (although I don't see why people need to be fascinated with Paris Hilton et al but *shrug*)

Nobody said they were Atheist. That doesn't do them justice! Atheism implies a careful study and a conclusion reached from it. For a massive part of the population religion, either organised or otherwise has no place in their lives, nor have the christian values that go with it.

Fair enough.

[dalek]

But in the same way that I have to be tolerant of people with no interest in religion or God, so I would expect that courtesy to be returned.

When you say "have to be tolerant" is this from free will or because the bible tells me so, (everyone break into song now), as to those others reciprocating, I believe a lot of atheists/agnostics do tolerate those of faith, lets not forget that all families have different persuasions of individuals in their makeup, I am on paper a WASP, my kids were not baptised, (I know Fire and Brimstone we are going to hell in a hand basket blah) as my spouse is Catholic we both then decided to allow them to make this decision when they got old enough to understand what it was they were becoming involved in, at 19 my daughter chose to become a practising Catholic (boyfriends family is very Catholic) and that's okay with me, she is still my daughter..my son, well he's too busy with WOW to be bothered by it all... By saying "have to" you are implying that if it were left up to you, you wouldn't be so tolerant, at least that's how I read that statement...as if your hands are tied by the scriptures...like you have to turn the other cheek, or you have to drop money into a plate every Sunday, or you have to let everyone know that your belief's are stronger then mine, me I don't hafta do nutting if "I" don't want to, but I will out of common courtesy or decency, or because I respect other's, not because someone or something tells me to...sorry, starting to slide into a rant here, religion talk does that to me....Torquemada's not reading this is he....