31 Students killed at Virginia Tech

[RoadClosed]

Why is no one bringing this up? Were those cow boys playing Doom and listening to Body Count and Ice - T when they were killing people ? If they were I'd love to have a time machine because those must be RARE albums after 300 or so years.

Genghis Khan never had a gun, nor Alexander, or the Roman amy or those bastard Vikings. Before the pistol there were duals by sword. Guns haven't been around that long really, in the timeline of our human history.

[dalek]

Statistics can be fun eh!

To me these would fall under the catagory of "self imposed" as opposed to someone else making your choice for you..

Right now You are more likely to die of:

Heart disease: 654,092
Cancer: 550,270
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,147
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 123,884
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 108,694
Diabetes: 72,815
Alzheimer's disease: 65,829
Influenza/Pneumonia: 61,472
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 42,762
Septicemia: 33,464

Okay....still apples and oranges here...even the traffic fatalities are not really a fair comparison, notice they didn't list AIDS (unless it's under Influenza/Pneumonia as these are the symptons, so not nescessarily the flu).

But then we could blame the Tobbacco industry for the Heart and cancer deaths, Diabetes on Big Mac's, Chronic Lower Respiratory or Asthma on Industry, not up on my Medical knowledge for the others, unless bad acid can be used for the Alzheimer's problems, in which case we can blame the Pharmaceutical companies.

Ignoring the problems will not make them go away....

I was thinking 14,000 out of 300,000,000 isn't bad

True, it would be irrational to think we could ever get that number down to zero, however I think anything that can reduce that number is a step in the right direction..then maybe we wouldn't be discussing these events all the time..

[RoadClosed]

To me these would fall under the catagory of "self imposed" as opposed to someone else making your choice for you..

I would agree, we know how to reduce the risks of MOST of those diseases. AIDS isn't listed because it is not a big killer. If you look those are in order of the Top 10, so if you keep going you see that even a greater number of deaths are attributed. Making my personal analysis even more shocking. Outside of health, I would call a death by car also not self imposed however. Very few people intentionally get into an accident. Traffic fatalities and accidents around the home or for the most part not self imposed. Especially the 5000 people who weren't even in a car when they died of a traffic fatality.

Want to blame a tobaco company? Blame Al Gore.

Okay....still apples and oranges here...even the traffic fatalities are not really a fair comparison,

If I didn't think it was a fair comparison I wouldn't have posted. To me it is fair. The idea behind the debate is to reduce risk over the cost of the freedom to own a firearm. By my calculation, not comparing any other factor than just gun related death, and if I remove the criminal element; we are giving up a constitutional right to be approximately 1 percent safer. Assuming that is even a correct theory. That, doesn't jive for me.

I feel the gun debate is more an emotional one than logical.

[dalek]

Traffic fatalities and accidents around the home or for the most part not self imposed

This is where we differ then on the word "accident", a homicide or gun related death due to someone else consciously pulling the trigger is not an accident, also there is no such thing as an "accident" when it comes to home injuries or vehicles, all mishaps are preventable where possible. Cars are supposed to be road worthy, if not why not? The car stopped in front of you as you run up their arse has stopped for a reason, why were you so close that you didn't allow for enough time to stop, this applies to all road conditions. The person jaywalking suddenly in front of a 2 ton vehicle is preventable if that person jaywalking had of used a designated crosswalk or traffic intersection, the person running inot said jaywalker probably should have been aware of pedestrians walking across the street, all preventable, an accident is like an act of God...such as a lightning strike, very unnavoidable.....falling off the ladder while putting up Christmas lights is also preventable, did they have a second person to ensure the ladder wouldn't slide of the gutter's/eavestroughs. Was the oven burner left on when little susy burned herself, or was the boiling pot of water left to boil and the handle sticking out so little susy would bump into it and scald herself, did the Tim Allen type dude ensure the wiring he was doing was certified by a qualified electrician, did they have their chimney recently cleaned of soot...all preventable...

We like to write everything off to, "it was an accident" the tree jumped out in front of me, same with people who avoid hitting animals but then go face to face with the oncoming car, result...cat's fine but the occupants of both vehicles are part of the dashboards...very preventable, your supposed to run into the animal to avoid complicating everything by causing more mishaps and endangering others.

So I don't believe it is a fair comparison to use what is essentially preventable deaths to those that are unpreventable such as being shot by someone who is making the choice for you...

[JPnyc]

So if all mishaps are preventable when possible, what are they called when prevention is IMpossible? Those aren't accidents?

[dalek]

So if all mishaps are preventable when possible, what are they called when prevention is IMpossible? Those aren't accidents?

Define for me a mishap that is impossible to avoid, think about it, there really is no such thing as an accident, all actions have reactions, I mentioned a true accident is one such as a lightning strike or Hurricane or where nature has decided your outcome, with the exception of course of natural death...but Doctors are trying their level best to reverse that.

From Websters..

Accident, in Law, is equivalent to casus, or such unforeseen, extraordinary, extraneous interference as is out of the range of ordinary calculation.

Out of ordinary calculation, the car ahead of you stopping suddenly may be unforseen at that point, but if you drive carefully and defensively you will be able to avoid running up that person's arse, same goes with just about everything else, if I choose to jaywalk and get run over by a semi, it's not an accident for the driver of the truck because I chose to walk across the street at that moment in time, however if with due diligence the driver being alert and fit (not on bennies and not on a cell phone) he may be able to react in time to not run over the stupid jaywalker...if the chainsaw suddenly cuts off your leg below the knee, is this an accident or a) you were tired b) distracted c) careless d) into pain e) trying to get out of the way of the falling tree you just cut.

With foresight most industrial/domestic mishaps can be prevented, usually requires education and common sense as well as good safety protocols.

Most of everything we buy today comes with warning lables or cautions, yet we don't see any of these on firearms, such as "this is the safety catch" or "pulling trigger may be hazardous to your health or others", or "please put in a secure cabinet and keep away from children"...

[JPnyc]

That's too easy. You're driving down a country road and a tree falls on your car.

[dalek]

That's too easy. You're driving down a country road and a tree falls on your car.

Easy...Lol...okay calculate the odds and find me facts to back that one up...

A few things...

1. Did the wind blow it down (big wind,what were you doing driving) if so then it is considered an act of God which is an accident

2. Was the tree cut and left to stand until a gust of wind blew it down...(preventable)

3. Was the tree dead and fell as a result of infestation (again Nature so it is an accident).


4. Was the tree part of an ecosystem that had been damaged or changed by man (preventable)

[Clp727]

RoadClosed provided some very good factual information and I agree with his point of view as do many Americans. During the 1990's when the "Assault" weapons ban was passed, it was highly controversial because in essence they were nothing more than a semi automatic firearm that had the intimidating appearance. That ban passed by a handful of votes. Most of those who supported the ban felt that it was OK because conventional firearms weren't being considered. Statistics have shown that they were not popular weapons of criminals. The simple hand gun is used in nearly all crimes as well as home defense. I think it is sad that the politicians are trying to forward their political agenda through this tragedy.
We can't legislate this behavior out of our lives. No way. I think that we as a country need to take a deeper look at ourselves and try to figure this out once and for all. Games, Movies, Music, and Guns are always being blamed for these events. I say the problem is bigger than that. We need to look at what has changed in the last 20 or so years that may be contributing to the mass violence that we have just seen. Up to about the late 1980's or early 1990's, Americans seldom saw such acts of violence. This behavior was unheard of! The gun laws were less prevalent as they are now. Machine guns were legal in America up to the 1960's. We all played "Army" or "Cowboys and Indians" or arcade games, and we all watched violent movies and TV shows. The cartoons were even violent! The music was just as heavy. Yet these mass murders weren't happening.

I think we need to look beyond the usual political debate and find the real problem in our country.

[Blunted One]

I want to start by saying how horrible this is and how after seeing some of the pictures and videos of this guy I want to know why no one stepped in and took action to at least help him. Most seem to put in a small effort or even report him to police (he stalked some girls on 2005, students and professors said he wrote about murder and violence at length), but they never followed up or had a counselor visit him to talk.

People can say it isn't their responsibility to help him and that they are too caught up in their own life to help others, but this is something that could have been prevented.

I can't imagine what the parents/families are going through. The fact this kid basically tried to be a copycat of the Columbine thing just boils my blood and you would think since that happened in 1999 that people would take a closer look at those who are disturbed mentally or show signs of being very violent/suicidal. But I guess most are concerned about Terrorists entering our country now-a-days.

Here is an idea I remember hearing a few years back...guns can be bought for what they go for now. Each bullet should cost a ton if not thousands of dollars.