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Thread: AO - Max security for a connected world

  1. #231
    I've been gone for 2 months and have 12 pages to catch up on. I'm on Page 2, so sorry for being very out-of-order in my reply to this:

    Admins and mods don't "bring in" traffic. Search engines do. And as I've already said 10 times, what is posted to the forum is what will return in searches and it will bring similar traffic.

    What exactly do you think can be done by the admins and mods to bring in traffic? The site is already decently ranked in the various major search engines. We are not obscure in the least. That's the best we can do.
    I disagree with this. My own site used to have very active and hopping forums, and it was everything I could do to keep up with the topics of any given day. How did that happen? I, the admin, went out and baited people in. I started with friends, people from other forums I was on, even added a link to my site in the signature of all my personal e-mails. I brought in some folks, who in turn brought in some folks, and so on. That worked wonders.

    Like AO, my own forums are presently all but dead. You want to know why? I haven't had time to bait people in anymore. I plan on jumping back on top of that in the not-so-distant future. Site's dead, I'm willing to take the blame for it.

    Google's great, but footwork and word-of-mouth are highly, highly underrated. You can't build something and then expect it to grow itself. You have to feed it, and that IMHO is part of the admin/mods jobs. Once they do their part, the users take care of the rest.

    On that note, I think HTRegz's points made on Page 2 were right on the money. It's a balance.

    And now I'm going to continue trying to catch up on this thread...

  2. #232
    Senior Member JPnyc's Avatar
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    That's true when you're starting out, you have no membership to begin with and have to prime the pump, so to speak. Once a forum is more established, it's generally self-sustaining. We have many examples of this among our forums.

    Starting out with luring friends is fine, if your forum happens to cover a topic that your friends are interested in, and they want to help you out. A corporate owned situation is a little different.

  3. #233
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    Eg, does that revenue or lack thereof affect the spending power of that $50?
    No...it doesn't...$50 is $50, but $50 will buy you a lot more in Mexico than it would in the UK.

    My online moniker should be an indicator where my political leanings lie...I find it somewhat hypocritical for a ' corporate site ' to expect it to get content for ' free ' or not pay ' fair value ' for it.

    And I don't consider $50 and more especially a ' chance ' to win $50 anywhere close to ' fair value '.

    I've spent the better part of my life volunteering and working with charities and in that vein you expect to do a lot of stuff for free...even in paid service...but I'm not so gullible as to work for free for General Motors...

    as you say...as Intmon says...this is a corporate site...why in the world would you expect members to ' donate ' their time, their knowledge, and skills, for ' free '?

    I find it very strange that a ' corporation ' would expect ' free ' services as if it were a Registered Charity...I find it even stranger that anyone would even contribute ' free ' services to a for-profit corporation.

    You want the members to contribute content but you're unwilling to pay or pay fair market value for it...you are not a charity as you so well have pointed out on numerous occasions. You are a for-profit corporation.

    The day I see General Motors run ADs for volunteers to contribute free time to the assembly-lines is the day I'll know the world has gone completely mad.

    It makes no sense to me at all...and reminds me of P.T.Barnum
    Last edited by Egaladeist; March 21st, 2008 at 11:38 AM.

  4. #234
    Senior Member JPnyc's Avatar
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    Well first, $50 is not free so I'll disregard all the references to expecting "free" anything.

    Second, the numbers you quoted earlier, represent gross revenue, not profit. This is not just a corporation but a public one. That means there are not only employees but stockholders drawing on the revenue. I'm not about to give a detailed financial report for the company, but suffice it to say quoting gross revenue really has no bearing on anything.

    Third, I find it pretty interesting that there is such readiness to accept and mention our corporate status when it comes to the stipend offered, and yet none when it comes to acknowledgment of the restrictions we are forced to work within, in a corporate structure.

    What in your estimation is fair market value?

  5. #235
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    Come now JPnyc...I realize you have to walk the corporate line...you're an employee of the company and an administrator of their forums...but you know how ridiculous it is and how hypocritical it is for a for-profit corporation to ask for people to ' donate ' to the company's welfare.

    For one thing the offer of $50 is a ' recent ' development caused primarily through this thread and it only applies to the few that get awarded it...if 100 people submit tutorials in the stated time frame only one gets the $50...the rest get squat.

    It amazes me how it almost seems like ' internet corporations ' expect to get contributions for free and people are actually stupid enough to go along with it thinking it's OK. That's like Ford opening up a Plant in Detroit asking Detroitonians to come and donate their time, resources, and knowledge for free while it keeps all the profit.

    Yes...the revenue is distributed among staff, shareholders, etc...but that's also true of every business that trades on the market.,,it has nothing to do with asking for people to donate ' free ' services.

    such readiness to accept and mention our corporate status when it comes to the stipend offered, and yet none when it comes to acknowledgment of the restrictions we are forced to work within, in a corporate structure.
    Please...what does paying fair market value have to do with " forced to work within, in a corporate structure "? Having a corporate structure does not in any way prevent the corporation from paying ' fair market value '.

    What in your estimation is fair market value?
    That would be impossible for me to say with any certainty unless I could determine from your books how much this site's revenue is dependent upon member-driven content vs other factors. If as you say the content drives the site traffic not, for instance, corporate promotions or advertising for the site, then $50 is not enough.

    I will however grant you that it is NOT your responsibility to offer anything...it is the contributors responsibility to evaluate how much they think their time and effort is worth and ensure that they get it. If someone spends 3 hours on a tutorial it is up to them to determine it's worth. And if you're not willing to pay then they should go elsewhere.

    This is a business JupMed is running...and like any business if you want something you should pay for it...but...if people are willing to pony it up for free so that the corporate wallets can get fatter at no cost to them...

    well...what can you really say to that.

    At any rate...a multi-million dollar corporation cannot justify getting and or expecting free donated content...it is NOT a charity...

    but...P.T.Barnum would be proud.
    Last edited by Egaladeist; March 21st, 2008 at 04:34 PM.

  6. #236
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    I will however grant you that it is NOT your responsibility to offer anything...it is the contributors responsibility to evaluate how much they think their time and effort is worth and ensure that they get it. If someone spends 3 hours on a tutorial it is up to them to determine it's worth. And if you're not willing to pay then they should go elsewhere.
    Yet you take it upon yourself to determine for every single contributor out there how much they think their time and effort is worth.

  7. #237
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    Yet you take it upon yourself to determine for every single contributor out there how much they think their time and effort is worth
    I haven't set any specific value on any contributions...what I have said is that they are worth something...and a profit-corporation should not take unfair advantage of the generosity of it's contributors...

    JupMed is not a charity. And their value on member contributions up to date has been no value whatsoever.

    Please...be my guest and go to a factory and volunteer your services for free...there's no difference...Neg...either your not as smart as I think you are or you're walking the corporation line. Either way it's a stupid statement for you to make.

    You wouldn't want me to set a value on member contributions.
    Last edited by Egaladeist; March 21st, 2008 at 04:45 PM.

  8. #238
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    I haven't set any specific value on any contributions...what I have said is that they are worth something...and a profit-corporation should not take unfair advantage of the generosity of it's contributors...
    It is up to the contributors to decide whether or not $50 is enough for their effort. If they deem that amount too low, they will simply either not write the tutorial, or take it elsewhere where they feel they do get paid enough.

    Please...be my guest and go to a factory and volunteer your services for free...there's no difference...
    If you do not see a difference between writing tutorials for recognition (something you handily sweep aside) and $50 on the one hand and "volunteering your services for free at a factory", I'd say this discussion was doomed from the get-go (which I believe it was in either case...).

    Neg...either your not as smart as I think you are or you're walking the corporation line.
    Must be one of those... yes...

  9. #239
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    If you do not see a difference between writing tutorials for recognition (something you handily sweep aside) and $50 on the one hand and "volunteering your services for free at a factory", I'd say this discussion was doomed from the get-go (which I believe it was in either case...).
    I think you see a difference where there isn't one...

    yes...recognition is a good thing...and a very good way for internet corporations to avoid paying people

    You fail to see that JupMed is a business like Ford...like Dupont...it's a business...the only difference is that internet based corporations want to get rich off the backs of free services rendered.

    At least Dupont and Ford pay for their services.

    Go ahead and open a publishing house and ask authors to submit their work for free in the hope they might win $50 and see how long your doors stay open.

    Where exactly is this difference? A business is a business whether it's on a corner in your home town or on the internet.

    Unionize the internet. Let's set a precedent on the internet...let's unionize AO. Have a work stoppage, a strike...no one contributes until demands are met and contracts are issued...think it can't be done? Can't be organized?


    Think again. Don't think for one minute that the gravy train can't end...it can...it just needs a push.
    Last edited by Egaladeist; March 21st, 2008 at 05:30 PM.

  10. #240
    Jaded Network Admin nebulus200's Avatar
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    I've read through some of the discussions here and just wanted to add my random $0.02 in (these days not worth much, but that is another discussion)...

    I miss the tutorials, I even wrote a few of them and consider it encouraging to see the possibility of good tutorials being rewarded and to potentially increase the depth of the discussions here (which IMO over the last many years have devolved in most cases to relatively simple PC repair questions, like OMG i have a virus)...With that being said, I also wanted to mention I stopped writing them for a couple of reasons, one of which was that I didn't particularly care for losing 'ownership' of something I chose to post here...

    The other goes into the, at times, rapid/rabid responses to things like tutorials or in-depth questions (most often about hacking). At times, I recall seeing posts degenerate into flame wars and name calling and it is bad enough to have to read through all of it to get to the content I cared about, but I will say the, at times, rampant flaming caused me to chose not to post, even though I may well have been interested in the topic, I have no interest in participating in flame wars.

    Off to climb back into my hole again...
    /neb
    There is only one constant, one universal, it is the only real truth: causality. Action. Reaction. Cause and effect...There is no escape from it, we are forever slaves to it. Our only hope, our only peace is to understand it, to understand the 'why'. 'Why' is what separates us from them, you from me. 'Why' is the only real social power, without it you are powerless.

    (Merovingian - Matrix Reloaded)

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