What Do You Belive Is True?

[bimmer]

I just don’t wanna anybody to get a wrong idea about my religion or race coz’ of one person …. This won’t be fair .
That’s all ….

[Moody]

rcgreen,

Right after Sept 11, I thought that maybe what had happened was okay with Muslims, but humans in general are not like that. So I decided to educate myself. I needed to know why us Americans were hated so much. I know someone who is Muslim and she lives in Kuwait so I thought a smart thing to do would be to speak to her and I did so with an open mind (that's vital if you want to learn). Bid Laden and his followers are from a group with very extremist ideals. The reason we are hated so much is because the Palestinians and the Jews are fighting over their homeland and America always backs the Jews. There is a lot of great literature available and I'm sure there is a lot of good info on the net if you are interested in learning about the people, their culture and their history.

Bimmer, I'm sorry your country has gone through so much turmoil. I hope peace comes soon.

[rcgreen]

Been to Israel. Felt sorry for Palestinians being treated
like second class citizens, but I stand behind what I
said about Islam as a philosophy.

Palestinian problem will not be solved by governments.
As long as people are identified as "groups" instead
of individuals, group loyalty will force people into
conflicts over which group "owns" the land.

The sad thing is that many individual Palestinians
have lost homes, farms and other property that
they legitimately owned as individuals.
Neither Yasser Arafat nor neighboring arab
governments have done any thing to restore
Palestinians' rights AS INDIVIDUALS.
They use them for larger political purposes.

[laurasbestmate]

first of all big up Ouroboros and bimmer for some high quality posts

In an earlier post I said I felt that OBL should be tried under the geneva conventions, and a view was posted that he was no covered by the conventions. Whilst i don't know the complete answer, I will point out that the conventions cover militias and voluntary forces fighting, so to my mind there is a grey area at the very least.
Secondly I feel that justice is seen to been done is a politically important point. On of the factors leading to sept 11, to my mind, is anger directed at America. If justice is seen to be done in a truely independent way I beleive that it may go some way towards alleviating the frustation, and therefore providing a start towards a long term solution.

[Negative]

Originally posted by rcgreen
But this is the COSMOS forum.
This is the right place for this type of discussion.
No one is getting flamed.
Don't worry, be happy.

This indeed IS the Cosmos-forum, and it IS the right place for this type of discussion. Only one rule: no offensive posts.

Originally posted by NetSyn
I dont understand how anyone could take so many lives and still live with themselves knowin that they killed so many men, women, and children... I think the person who is responsible for these acts should just end his or her life now on ethics and morals alone.

Let me make an analogy: why doesn't Pres. Bush end his life? Why doesn't Ariel Sharon end his life?
Some interesting links...
Bush
Bush
Sharon

Originally posted by Shangrila
cruel and unusual punishment woohoo!

Good you specified your post as hidden...it should be on the General Chit-chat forum though...

Originally posted by rcgreen
Bin Laden will be remembered as an outstanding
example of this type, but he's not the root of the
problem. The real problem, which our politicians
are afraid to admit, is Islam itself.
It is not popular to tell the plain truth.
Islam is an evil, monstrous philosophy.
The human race will not progress from its
present troubles until all civilized people decide
that that, like nazism and communism and racism,
we should not tolerate this kind of belief.
There is no place for such a philosophy that openly
advocates mass murder, torture, persecution of
dissidents, and ultimately the forced conversion
of the entire human race to Islam on threat of
death. We need to restart the "coldwar", putting
all Islamic governments on notice that they are on the wrong
side in the struggle between good and evil.

1. Islam is not a philosophy, it's a religion.

2. "...openly advocates mass murder, torture, persecution of dissidents..."??? Facts, please, facts... It's not because some lunatic muslim-freaks think like that, that islam is like that... And I'm pretty sure you're going to come up with a couple of Koran-quotes to proove your statement (I've got my Bible-quotes ready already, just in case...).

What you are referring to, is the Shariat: an Islamic system of justice (not THE Islamic system of justice, just another interpretation).

The 'Western human rights declaration' is based roughly on the Bible: the general principles of the Bible are 'translated' into real-life situations.

The 'Islamic human rights declaration' is based roughly on the Koran: the general principles of the Koran are 'translated' into real-life situations.

Now, the 'Human Rights Declaration of Islam' (Cairo, 1990) says
(that) people of the world are equal, because they all believe in God, and only faith in God can make the human dignity higher...[/quote]
THAT'S what Islam is about... Of course, as in Western civilization, each country makes its own laws...
And that's how this can be found in the Shariat:

Murder requires equal revenge.

This is not only a quote from the Shariat, it's also a quote I could lay in the mouths of many of you....

like nazism and communism and racism,
we should not tolerate this kind of belief (Islam).

Das Kapital Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels: THAT'S communism (as in community)...

...and...

Mein Kampf Adolf Hitler: THAT'S nazism...

Now WHERE is the analogy?? And the analogy between Islam and nazism is completely out of my understanding...

The real problem, which our politicians
are afraid to admit, is Islam itself.
It is not popular to tell the plain truth

It's not popular to tell the plain truth... it's unfair to twist/ignore facts to come to a narrow-minded, ignorant conclusion.

Originally posted by rcgreen
Time is on my side. It is the Muslims who are trying
to restart the crusades, and anyone can see
that it is a fight they cannot win.
At the time of the crusades, the Islamic civilization
was roughly equal to Europe in human rights,
and more technologically advanced.
The crusades were fought to stop the Islamic invasion
of Europe, and fought to a draw.
Since then, the west has progressed beyond anyone's
dreams, both in human rights and technology.
The Muslims are backward, bitter, and envious.
The path of progress, for them, is to imitate
the west, not try to defeat it.
And the first step to redemption is to abandon Islam.

I'm pretty sure VictorKaum can give you the exact term for this kind of thinking (I'm not going to call it 'racism', since you seem to have no clue what exactly racism is...). You are assuming that Western civilization is greater, more 'advanced' than other civilizations. What exactly do you base your statements on? More firepower? More computers? Quality of life?

1825, Congo... some European 'holy man' to a local
The path of progress for you, my friend, is to imitate us. The first step to redemption is to become a catholic...

Originally posted by rcgreen, in reply to Moody
Perhaps you could get the koran at a local book store,
but beware, there is a death sentence for infidels to
read the islamic scriptures.
Maybe it's no big deal,to you, to convert to Islam,
to save your skin, but I will not convert and worship
their demon-god "Allah" I will not be silenced
until they take the broken axe from my dead hand.

The Koran
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

YOU SHALL HAVE YOUR RELIGION AND I SHALL HAVE MY RELIGION.

Originally posted by the_g_nee
the best way forward IN EVERY CASE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT IS WANTED is to use the pen, and not the sword

The nail right on the head...

[KorpDeath]

Originally posted by bimmer
guys , i know exactly how u all feel for what happened, I’m not writing to defend Ben-Laden, I know that he’s an A**H*L*, but it has nothing to do with Islam.

I am a Muslim , and I know much more than u know about our religion, the Islam didn’t justify killing ppl. Just like that nor kids or women.

Me and most of our Islamic Community consider this guy as a criminal against humanity.

But I’ll tell something else, did anyone of u guys asked him self what about whats going around in the middle east , specially Palestine, I’ll tell u what !!!

If u count number of victims in my country , it will be ur victims x 1000 if not more , if u count number of houses that been tear down and destroyed it will build WTC x 50 if not more.

But , coz’ of being a small country in the middle east , no one will even notice u.

So why don’t u tern all the speech about Ben-Laden to be said about Sharon for example !!
I always wonder .. where the end of all this will lead … is it peace or third war !

So what, the Israelis don't have the right to defend themselves against terrorists. And I'm sorry that feel that there is some injustices done to the people of Islam but the Israelis have the righ tto protect their interests. Unfortunately for the masses in Palestine there are people in their midst that makes it bad for everyone.

and please don't draw comparisons to what happened in NYC to what has been happeining in Israel cause it's been going for years and years thanks to the Palestinians.

And I'm sure that you feel Yassar FAtass has done all he can to try to help the situation, don't you? Of course he has had shipments of guns and such delivered to help out the baddies over there.

But then again blaming Yassar Fatass for what's happening in Israel is kind of like blaming Ronald McDonald when you get a bad burger, neither of them have any control....

[THEJRC]

Negative : Much thanx for telling it like it is!!

To all others, We need to relax with the offending posts here!! I am not Islamic, NOR am I christian by any means. I try not to be religious because it's not worth it. (I do beleive in a supreme being, be it god, allah, or otherwise)

This "I'm better than you because" attitude is symbolic of the very hatred we started this conversation about. If indeed, you are reduced to religious or race based slander, you have fallen into the same trap Osama has led you to!! Put your faith in what you beleive in, but dont fool yourself with the thought that other faiths are wrong.

Jesus did not have blond hair and blue eyes, in fact he most probably had darker skin than our age old vision of him (look at the area he was from... facts people facts) Why lie to yourself to create a "perfect" world. It's a waste of time!! Use your time wisely in understanding, and accepting differences, if it were not for differences in beleif, you would not be satisfied with life as it is today.

Once again, just my opinion... but we DO need to chill on the slander!

~THEJRC~

[Vorlin]

What do I believe? I believe a bunch of I've-never-been-out-of-the-States people don't have a freaking clue on what Islam is *really* about. You can quote book passages all you want but until you've been over there like I have, you have a media-warped pre-conceived misconception of what those people are really like.

Islam != Nazism, no matter which way you slice it. Islam is a *religion*. Nazism is fascist propoganda with definitive hate lines drawn in the sand. Ever see the gas chambers? It's not something you take your family to, that's for sure.

I pity you, all of you people who have ignorant views of outsiders. And I'm not some foreign exchange student (or a "towelhead", as NetSyn asked yesterday on IRC.. and by the way NetSyn, what did you mean by the comment "close enough"? My living in Saudi Arabia for 10 years qualifies me as a towelhead? If so, I've got a lot of replies to that one and I can type for a LOOOOONG time). I'm as American as anyone in this country but I believe I'm a whole lot more fair in my "judgements" of other classes/races of people. It's not the color of someone's skin, whether they're male or female, or whether or not they're catholic/jewish/islamic/hindu/etc... It's what's in their mind that counts.

Let the madness stop...christ on a flaming raft, I understand that there's conflict all over the world (I've seen quite a bit, a lot more than I ever want to admit, and a shitload more than half of these gangbanger wannabe fsckers), but damn, why does it have to instigate stupid comments/**** like some of these?

[KorpDeath]

Originally posted by Vorlin
What do I believe? I believe a bunch of I've-never-been-out-of-the-States people don't have a freaking clue on what Islam is *really* about. You can quote book passages all you want but until you've been over there like I have, you have a media-warped pre-conceived misconception of what those people are really like.

Islam != Nazism, no matter which way you slice it. Islam is a *religion*. Nazism is fascist propoganda with definitive hate lines drawn in the sand. Ever see the gas chambers? It's not something you take your family to, that's for sure.

I pity you, all of you people who have ignorant views of outsiders. And I'm not some foreign exchange student (or a "towelhead", as NetSyn asked yesterday on IRC.. and by the way NetSyn, what did you mean by the comment "close enough"? My living in Saudi Arabia for 10 years qualifies me as a towelhead? If so, I've got a lot of replies to that one and I can type for a LOOOOONG time). I'm as American as anyone in this country but I believe I'm a whole lot more fair in my "judgements" of other classes/races of people. It's not the color of someone's skin, whether they're male or female, or whether or not they're catholic/jewish/islamic/hindu/etc... It's what's in their mind that counts.

Let the madness stop...christ on a flaming raft, I understand that there's conflict all over the world (I've seen quite a bit, a lot more than I ever want to admit, and a shitload more than half of these gangbanger wannabe fsckers), but damn, why does it have to instigate stupid comments/**** like some of these?

Because my friend, ignorance seems to be bred into some people. There's just no getting away from the fact that people beleive they are better than everyone else because of their color,creed, or religion.

Hatred breeds hatred. It's starts when they are kids and only gets worse the older they get.

[jared_c]

I think we should capture the bastard, tie him up in times square, and let the the people of NY take care of the rest. Make sure a webcam is pointing at him so the nation can tap in and watch.