Windows will continue to rule.......

[Tiger Shark]

Ms. Mittens thread, here looked really interesting.... What I am really looking for.... So I went for it....

I D/Led it at home, Via Windows.... Well... Why did they pick some obscure way to compress it?... Well, no problem.... I'm now an uber leet linux chappie.... So I cut it to CD and take it to the satellite office.... Perfect, it reads the CD, copies it to the actual folder I asked it to... I'm so impressed with my abilities.... I try to burn it with the "burner" that comes with Fedora 1.... Funny, It doesn't do a darned thing..... Well... that sux... Ha, but being the "genius" I am I find another way to "burn" it..... Great.... the stupid thing did a simple file copy......

I open Mozilla to get instructions.... Wasn't it yesterday that, from here, over wireless, I was "up and running"? Well... Today.... We can't even see a network.... Funny really, XP finds it immediately.... Did I tell you how many times I was told I need to restart networking? I thought linix didn't need to be restarted during config changes... [my XP load takes it's changes on the fly..... Oh well]

Well..... Being smart, I went back to Windows.... Placed the CD with the ISO on it in the CD, copied it to the HD, ran my CD writer, cut it to CD and it boots perfectly.... Funny Huh?

Now, having booted to it, and ignored the errors it seems to work fine... It just doesn't recognize the wireless card.... I can live with that, I'll wait and see if it actually sees my network on monday through eth0......

I am seriously thinking that the title I gave this thread is right..... Maybe I'm spoiled by Windows.... But it works... It's properly supported and it doesn't just mess up on it's own, easily.....

Back on Monday for my next "report".....

[HTRegz]

Hey Hey,

As far as the install process, I still find Linux simpler (and no I'm not biased.. I'm typing this on XP Pro).... I've become a huge fan of SuSE lately, so I'll talk in regards to it. I popped in Disk 1 and it detected my existing partitions, and told me exactly what it was going to create (swap double the ram, and / with the rest of the free space). I can go to advanced if I want and create /var, /home /usr, etc.. or I can keep this setup. I get asked for a password, and to create a user and if I awnt a GUI or not, it'll install a basic setup and let me choose more packages if I so desire. Then I just have to swap disks. Now you have to remember, I'm getting a shitload more software here from a single install. No need to go back and install photoshop, or go back and install Office. They'll already exist. The install is done and I boot up and run YOU (Yast Online Update) and I'm done.

As far as support, I guess that depends on your hardware. I've got a WUSB11 Linksys Wireless USB Device. Using Windows I have to go and download drivers, however with SuSE, it already supported it. Next let's look at my laptop.. It's an Inspirion 1100 and the NIC is a Broadcomm 440 soemthing or other. Windows XP doesn't detect this card, and I'm left without a functional NIC when I install in an MS environment, however SuSE immediately detected my NIC and set it up for me. I was connected to my DSL modem and it detected that as well and popped up asking for my username and password, already knowing who my DSL Supplier was. Windows also doesn't natively detect my Video or Sound drivers, yet SuSE detected them as well. Let's look at my desktop, I have an nVidia GeForceFX 5200 128MB, my previous card was an nVidia GeForce2 MX 400 (I refuse to touch ATI products... solely a personal preference however, they do have great products). I've installed several operating systems between these cards. XP will install generic drivers, however to get the Detonator pack, I have to and find it and download it. With MDK it was similar, I had to search it out and download and install. With SuSE however, as soon as I ran YOU it listed the newest drivers and let me install from right there.

As for the Linux File System seeming illogical, Windows has finally (how long did it take them) accepted the Mount Point concept. Infact, you can run into problems using Exchange Clusters if you don't use Windows Mount Points (anyone wants more info, I've got an interesting article on WMPs)... As for where files are placed, /usr/local and /usr are the only main places.. lib for libraries, include for header files, bin for user binaries and sbin for admin and system binaries. Windows isn't much different, you have program files, system32, %systemroot%, the drive root, hell some games create subfolders inside folders off the root of the system.

The GUI ran slow? Check out a process list..... you'll be surprised by how many programs are loaded when KDE runs, disable some of the docked apps, or run a slimmer window manager, compile your own kernel, compile your own apps.. the list is endless for ways to speed up Linux. I'm running SuSE 9.1 on a 350Mhz PC with 256MB of RAM and I have no problems, it boots up faster than my 2500+ w/ 768MB of RAM running Windows XP Pro. I also have the same functionality on both systems (except that I don't have a mouse plugged into the SuSE box.. hehe) and SuSE is using 1/30th of the space.. Of course, I have a lot of mp3s and movies and so on on the Windows Machine, if you compare the root drives.. XP has a 5GB drive for the system and SuSE has a 4GB. the XP drive has 900MB free whereas SuSE has 1.2GB free, and I don't have a single program installed on C: other than what XP placed there, I have a seperate drive for my applications.

CD Burner.... K3B comes with SuSE (it's fairly common linux burning software) and my gf has created a CD with it, yet she came up with a coaster when she used Nero.

I personally would like to attribute most of your problems to your choice in Fedora. I understand that many people on here have said good things about it, however everyone I know personally has given me nothing but bad reviews.

I could add many more points, but I don't want to turn this into a my OS is better thread because I know that wasn't your intention. I use both operating systems on a regular basis and just wanted to provide some alternate examples to the problems you've been having.

Peace,
HT

[Soda_Popinsky]

My biggest complaint is the insane file structures linux has. Windows programs are nicely encapsulated in their file structures, while linux sorta throws them all over. I'm starting to pick up its tendencies though, and I find that the file structure does sorta have some reason to it. I just don't have it down to habit yet. Plus, installations are a bitch. Windows is simply double click setup, hit nextnextnextnextnext then "no I dont want a icon on my desktop.", or dragging **** from a zip file. But then again, linux has such great software. Such GREAT software.

So I use windows and ssh into my other box. Or a bootable CD. I'd like to make a complete switch, but it's more employable to be experienced in both. Plus I can't ditch adobe just yet.

[devpon]

Tiger Shark, sounds like you are having a good time. The best advice I can give you is - linux is not like windows. They are 2 different beasts and if you really want to learn linux, then you will have to get out of the windows mindset. Lets say someone was brought up on unix/linux, would not the same arguments you put forth concerning windows be true? Think about it.
As far as restarting linux, that is not what you have been doing. You have been restarting the networking daemon. When you installed linux, how many times did you have to reboot? When installing apps. in fedora, how many times did you have to reboot? Now, how many times do you have to reboot while loading windows and all the apps. that follow? Get it?
I have to agree with HTRegz on your choice of fedora. Try suse and you might have a different experience or not.
Well once again, have fun(if pulling your hair out is fun )

[Tiger Shark]

Just to make the point again for other readers that may chose to comment in the future.... I'm not here to play the "Windows is better than *nix" game.... These are observations.... I might argue a point or two if they are valid points that aren't intended to start that type of silliness.....

I personally would like to attribute most of your problems to your choice in Fedora

HT: Ohhh, man.... Why didn't you type that before I went and got the Redhat....

Your points are valid, but like I said up front, there's a gazillion flavors of linux and they all seem to have their own little benefits/foibles. How would I know which one would support the various chipsets that I would want to install it on if it does what I want? Barring six months of research, (which would probably void the final decision because those I initially set aside as inadequate may have changed a lot in that time.... Heck, I got 144 updates for my Fedora load), I have to decide to try *nix, read a bit and plop myself down on one of the flavors.

I'll admit quite happily that the install was fairly painless - It built a load of partitions and set them all up right as far as I can tell... If I knew what I was doing I might be more impressed.... ;-) Yep, it found the, (probably), same network card your SuSE couldn't, first shot, right out of the box. I'm not unhappy with the install at all......

All that extra software.... Oh dear... Not being smart enough up front to know what I need and don't need, I told it to install all packages in the typical load..... Well.... I can honestly say that I rarely, if ever, use photoshop, (though I don't think it came with Fedora), and I surely didn't want the Office suite they threw at me.... I wanted an OS loaded.... period. Like Windows does.... Just the OS and the basic tools that come with it.....

Wireless..... Not only doesn't Fedora come with the right drivers - it can't run them anyway.... So I have to pay Linuxant..... I have to call "foul" on that when it's Open Source and free.... It shows a lack of support.... and the WPC54G PCMCIA card is hardly far from the "beaten path" as Wireless devices go.

Video was the same problem as wireless... It took me a day to get a workable screen..... and I have other computers etc. to help me find the things I need.

I'm not familiar with the mount point concept.... send me a link.... OTOH, I run Windows quite happily without them..... Seems to work just fine without them..... As to the rest of the filesystem.... I find Windows to be logical and organized.... Yes, that may well be a "better the devil you know than the devil you don't" issue but let's look at it when you install an app.....

Windows:-

1. Tells you up front where it will put the app and let's me change it.
2. If I pay no attention I know that the program files go in c:\program files or in a folder off root named something that is related to the software.
3. DLL's etc. are _usually_ dropped into %systemroot%\system32
4. It puts an icon on the desktop, (if I requested it), or in the program list so I can find the bloody executable.....

Fedora:-

1. I might have to compile the package..... [Granny note: what does "compile" mean?]
2. Some require a simple "make", others "make-dep", others "make-install", some any combination or all plus some others......
3. Some require you to only click the .rpm.
4. In all cases above the result is files "thrown" everywhere. /usr/local/bin, /usr/local/sbin, /usr/local/lib, /root/bin, /root/sbin, /root/lib and /where/the/hell/ever/it/wants.....
5. Finding the subsequent executable can be 'fun". Some will start from a "binary file", some need a script, some are smart enough to put themselves into the list of "Applications", (though, sadly, these are not common), and some just don't seem to start at all.
6. When you need to find out how to start them the documentation seems lacking... It's assumed you already know how to start their app..... If you don't then "the devil take the hindmost"......
7. Oh... I forgot...... When you try to compile a package and it comes back and tells you.... "You need library xyz for this to be compiled.... Fatal error.... Aborting".... [Granny Note: If she got as far as a "make" this is going to throw her for a loop"....]

GUI running slow.... Hmmm..... this is "porked out" install of XP.... It has everything running as it was installed and a few things extra..... I only added services and kept the "typical install" stuff there too..... I did the same with the Fedora..... It's dual boot so the hardware is the same..... I shouldn't need to have to "slide on into' the services and shut things down when I have no clue as to whether they are necessary. Default loads - WinXP wins hands down for speed on this box... in all categories.... [I'm only telling you what I see, and I'm not "bending" the truth to make windows look good.... I'm trying to be honest and fair.... You know me HT....]

Fedora's CD Burner didn't want to play...... what can I say..... though it seems like the filesystem itself recognized that this was a CD-RW and "played the game" to an extent.... If I only had one CD available, it would have been the coaster you mentioned..... Funnily enough, I used Nero in WinXP to create the bootable that worked..... wtf... I dunno..... I'll freely admit that Nero has created some very pretty coasters in it's time..... but this time the coaster functioned....

I'll be the first to admit that the biggest issue is probably a "learning curve" issue.... But that's why I started the thread.... OK, I _might_ have chosen a more provacative title than I should... But, that aside, these are my observations..... I know full well that Linux is a stable, highly configurable OS..... But it's not your Granny's OS.... It's not "easy" and I'm speaking from the POV of someone who has "something" of a clue about computers.

Soda: I agree entirely..... While I'm not that bothered on the employability front Linux would keep me closer to the "bleeding edge" in security..... which is where I would like to be ... maybe I'm just an old dog that can't learn the new tricks..... <LOL>

Devpon: I see your point entirely..... My issue is time.... I have a 1200 page book to read.... My time in this thread might have been better used reading it..... But, my WinXp load seems to do better for me.... Don't get me wrong.... I have read a dozen or more 1200 page books on Windows.... But they weren't "Windows for Dummies".... honest.... ;-) They tended to be things like the inner "workings" of AD, the registry "exposed" etc..... I know it's all different.... DOS was different to me 16 years ago..... it's the way I went.... I need to learn.... I will.... It's just going to take some time......

<he says..... Hopefully.....>

[HTRegz]

Hey Hey,

I haven't heard of so many problems with a Linux install since my install of slackware many, many years ago. This is only my opinion but I think part of your problem may be that Fedora is a community project... it just doesn't have the same level of support that other "commercial" distrobutions provide.

I've sent you a PM regarding the Windows Mount Points article, and I'm more than willing to provide a helping hand if ya get stuck...

Good luck with the rest of your setup

Peace,
HT

[gothic_type]

HT: Ohhh, man.... Why didn't you type that before I went and got the Redhat....

That is maybe your problem. Fedora is not redhat linux (redhat is no longer supported by...erm...redhat) and as HT said, it is a community project. Not only is it a community project but a new community project. I'm not sure how long it's been going for, but I'd be surprised if it was over a year. Compare this to many other linux distros or indeed windows (not any specific windows version because I doubt if ms started from scratch when they were creating XP) and you might see the problem.

Please don't think I'm flaming you or anything...I wouldn't say that linux was better than windows or vice-versa because they are built for different purposes (or if not for different purposes, with different user sets in mind)

ac