To Vista or not to Vista? that is the question?

[HTRegz]

Vista runs optimal @ 4gb ram, so it might be a better idea to wait abit and then upgrade fully

I really hate when people make stupid obscure comments... In a 32-bit world, although the theoretical support is 4GB of RAM, you can't actually address the full 4GB... You see PCI devices share the addresses, so depending on your PCI devices you can actually only address 3 - 3.5GB of RAM making the remainder completely useless.

As for Vista... I know people running it just fine on 512MB of RAM (you just have to live without Aero).... I'm running it with full Aero support on 1GB of RAM and it runs beautifully... The only time I run into problems is with GL-based games and that's because of Microsofts current method for supporting GL (since my GL card does't have manufacturer support)... Microsoft uses DirectX as a GL wrapper which gives you horrid performance on GL-based games..

Moira: Your comment about 512MB not being enough because you see how much is used... Example.. I use 50% of my RAM on boot... I have 1GB which means Vista takes 512MB (this is including the SUA tools starting up, Defender running, Automatic Updates downloading, etc)... However you have to remember that that's not all being used... Operating Systems and certain applications are greedy and take more than they need.... Exchange Admins are quite experienced in this... Exchange will take all available RAM (Exchange 2000 anyways) up to 1.5GB... Vista takes 512MB but not because it needs it.. just because it's holding in it reserve.

Two additional things... I wouldn't call Vista "buggy as hell" unless you're running a beta still... It has one or two minor bugs... but it's definitely not "buggy as hell" not even close... and hardware support exists.. as long as you aren't using old hardware... This goes back to the "We want more security, which means sacrificing legacy support"... It was a trade off and one I'm glad Microsoft finally made... Which brings me to the next point regarding XP to Vista being a minor jump... Considering 3.1, 95 and even 98 were just shells that ran on DOS the OS jump was minor... XP to Vista is pretty much the biggest jump they've made... They've attempted to hide this from the end user... but you shouldn't be on a technical forum if you're taking the end user view on an operating system.

I recently blogged on the "IT Expert, who's actually an end user" playing with Vista -- http://www.computerdefense.org/?p=269

Peace,
HT

**NOTE** I understand that I appear as a Microsoft zealot these days... It's a running joke at the office because it couldn't be further from the truth... I just don't like seeing people attacking amazing work and showing such disregard and even disrespect just because they don't like the company... It's BS.

[nihil]

Hmmmmm.................

I seem to recall that Cider is running 64 bit on at least one of his machines?

I would personally go for 1.5 or 2.0GB as it will not be wasted. Now, this machine was built a few years ago, and I stuffed 1.5GB into it............ I doubt if the last 512 has ever done anything............ it boots Win2000

My personal view is that Vista is not "buggy", at least by my personal definition........... it just doesn't support legacy hardware that well..........

My view is that if you go out and buy brand new kit you will have no problems...........try "upgrade" and you probably will

[brokencrow]

Well, it seems to be quickly becoming a non-choice. Just talked to a
Dell rep who told me XP is no longer available thru them with a new PC.
That's retail to home users. The business center is closed right now,
open on Monday, regular hours. We need 30+ laptops for some field
service techs and I'm hoping XP is still available. We run a lot of software
at work on 500+ computers, and I dread the thought of having to deal
with Vista issues as understaffed as we are. Chit, we're just NOW rolling
into XP and bagging our W2K boxes (gradually).

Does anybody know M$'s plans for killing off XP Pro besides the fact
support will end sometime in 2012? Are there any new PC's available
with XP still, hexadecimal? I need some laptops...

[nihil]

Hey brokencrow I think that they will sort you, given the corporate thing.

I have sent you a PM.............. I am coming to the conclusion that we will have to look after our fellows?

Johnno

[HTRegz]

Well, it seems to be quickly becoming a non-choice. Just talked to a
Dell rep who told me XP is no longer available thru them with a new PC.
That's retail to home users. The business center is closed right now,
open on Monday, regular hours. We need 30+ laptops for some field
service techs and I'm hoping XP is still available. We run a lot of software
at work on 500+ computers, and I dread the thought of having to deal
with Vista issues as understaffed as we are. Chit, we're just NOW rolling
into XP and bagging our W2K boxes (gradually).

Does anybody know M$'s plans for killing off XP Pro besides the fact
support will end sometime in 2012? Are there any new PC's available
with XP still, hexadecimal? I need some laptops...

I'm guessing you'll still be able to buy XP for quite a while... after all you can still get licenses for 2000... Support will end in 2014... As for purchasing laptops with the OS installed... most shops I've worked at have blow away the installed OS and installed their own... It eliminates the pre-installed crap that the vendor tends to put on the computer.

[|3lack|ce]

Funtime - I'll tell you what I've been telling all my clients who've not made the switch, then I'll tell you what I've been telling my clients who have:

"Yes, you should upgrade to Vista eventually, but I'd wait at least 6 months to a year before doing it. Perhaps then there'll be drivers out for your machine."

"Yes, there are no drivers for that particular piece of hardware yet for Vista. You'll have to live without it until there are, or switch back to XP..."

Welcome to the world of new OS's - we went through this at every Windows change since 95, and will probably continue to do so ad infinitum ad nauseum. I think the change to XP was perhaps the easiest because M$ decided to try to make it compatible with as much as it possibly could before releasing the OS - seems that on Vista, however, they learned their lesson..

Windows Vista Upgrade Advisor found the following minor problems...

My NIC - oops. That caused the whole consideration to be put on hold on my end. I wouldn't consider that 'minor' in any sense of the word since I need that one to do any other updates...

[edit for BrokenCrow]Yes, there are boxes for sale out there with XP still, but not new ones. For the record I'm selling old Dell Lattitude d600's loaded with XP Pro as fast as I can get them in and rebuilt (Picture this as - we sold the entire stock out 3 times last week and there's a waiting list), as well as all the other legacy boxes in my shop, while the (two) Vista boxes still sit there waiting for purchasers. I suggest trying those legacy shops local to you.[/edit]

[HTRegz]

"Yes, you should upgrade to Vista eventually, but I'd wait at least 6 months to a year before doing it. Perhaps then there'll be drivers out for your machine."

"Yes, there are no drivers for that particular piece of hardware yet for Vista. You'll have to live without it until there are, or switch back to XP..."

The problem is that people are waiting for drivers for a lot of things that will never have drivers... it's part of moving forward... The hardware companies have seen that their old drivers won't work and they've seen that a new video game pushes everyone to buy the latest and greatest hardware, they're relying on Vista to do the same... If I'm a hardware vendor, why would I want to put out drivers for my graphics tablet that's 5 years old (a problem that I have)... I'll force the consumer to purchase a new one... Is it a PITA...yes. Do I understand it as part of business??? Yes...

Let's compare Operating Systems to forms of recorded Video playback... I could hook my VCR up to my Coax on the back of my TV... then DVD players came out... If I wanted to use that same connection I had to spend money (converter) ... or I could purchase a new TV (still spending money) with RCA Jacks.... Now with Blu-Ray / HDDVD coming out the same thing is going to happen again...

People don't want to accept it because Backwards Compatibility has always been huge in PC-land but now with the need for more security... there's not as much backwards compatibility..

My NIC - oops. That caused the whole consideration to be put on hold on my end. I wouldn't consider that 'minor' in any sense of the word since I need that one to do any other updates...

I consider that to be quite minor... Who cares if you can't install updates without a NIC... you also can't be attacked so you don't need the protection those updates provide ... The other reason I consider it minor... a new NIC can be purchased for under 10 bucks.

Also just because the Advisor says it won't work does't mean it actually won't..

[brokencrow]

... most shops I've worked at have blow away the installed OS and installed their own... It eliminates the pre-installed crap that the vendor tends to put on the computer.

Yeah, I recently did the imaging for our new Lenovos. Lawdy, they did
indeed come with a lot of pre-installed crap. I actually deleted much of
it, then ran our copy of XP/sp2 over the top of the factory install. Turned
out nicely. The one thing I was wondering about was our license "pool".
My understanding from my supervisor is that a laptop coming in with an
XP C.O.A. adds to our overall license count, though we are indeed using
our volume license after imaging. I wonder if this is kosher with MS's finely
printed Indian treaty...er...license?

[The Old Man]

Nihill hit the nail on the head, "But..."
Could someone tell me the bottom line difference between the below two sources for Vista Home Premium? Like, perhaps, does one have to have separate drivers (understand the 64-bit drivers have to be ordered to match your original Vista OS serial number) Seems like back in the old days I got some boxed sets of W2G, which loaded all by themselves, and then a couple of "OEM" copies of W2G with other boxes which required some sort of extra boot floppies to install.. or something like that.
Anyway, i just wanted to move into the next generation of components so if i crater in the next while my wife won't be stuck with yesterday's computer and have to sort out lies from some sales person to upgrade later.
So i downloaded the "Vista-test program", and it told me to take a hike on every box we had except the laptop, and it would only accomodate the Basic Home version of Vista. So Acer said they'd 'upgrade' it to Vista Basic for fifty bucks, which was nice of them, but since it's running good and serves us well when we're away from home, i though i'd just leave it that way with XP perking along. Wife does her finances and email for us, and i play spider-solitaire and keep track of websites...
So anyway i just got finished building a new box and i want to put Vista (not the basic home version, nor any 'upgrade' version) on it. i already loaded Novell's boxed version of SUSE 10.2 on another box but don't believe she would like that so well after being used to all the prior versions of MS Windows. So am going to load up the new box with Vista, but need to know what's the difference between Tiger's price and MS's price. Tiger doesn't seem to say theirs is an "upgrade", which i don't like upgrades anyway, i like the full versions so i can give yesterday's toys to the kids and not have to keep them around in case the box needs reloaded sometime.
So anyway, here's the new box, i really don't know what i'm doing in all this new technology and parts but it's finally up and running with W2G so i'm ready to start over and make it use today's Vista OS instead of yesterday's.
Nforce 570 SLIT-A V-5.1 Dual DDR-2 667 w/8-channel sound, 2-Gig RAM (MBoard can handle 16 which (Linux and) the 64-bit version of Vista can handle, but i can't find any single-4's and don't want to invest too much in 1-gig-chips until the 4's come out), twin XFX-7600 video cards bridged, (2) 320-Gig Seagate SATA 7200/16mb drives fed from (2 of the 4) SATA feeds on the MBoard, (2) Ultra-ATA drives 160gig Seagate/80gig WD fed Cable-Select from IDE-1, (2) Dual-layer CD/DVD R/W's fed Cable-Select from IDE-2, (2) 3-1/2" USB-fed 7-in-1 Digital Media/floppy drives, Intel 3.0gig Pentium-D, Hec 580-w blue glow-light Power Supply, Apevia case (blue glow-lights also, see-thru side, kind of cool, should be a good girl-thing for my wife), 4-USB's in rear, 2-USB's in front, 1-Firewire, temperature readout, and a knob on front that i don't yet know what it does, and that's about it.

Except that Linux didn't really "see" the two SATA drives hooked to the MBoard, and neither does W2G, yet. But i havent' finished updating W2G and adding all the drivers for all the components either. Just wanted to find out what the difference is between the two prices below so i'll be ready to choose my vendor for Vista when i'm happy with the W2G install. There's about a c-note difference between Tiger (is Tiger's just an upgrade? Doesn't say so) and MS's "full version", and that difference could buy a lot of something else i probably need. Here's the links for the two prices:

- OEM $119.00 From TigerDirect

- Boxed "full version" $239.00 From Microsoft

Apologize for the lengthy post, but this is probably the last box i'll ever build. And if anyone is interested i'll let you know how it turns out with Vista.

[Moira]

This is the best take on Vista that I've seen - brilliant article!