End of the Universe Part Two

[Moira]

I thought that whole article made fascinating reading - and more learned people than us are perplexed by these matters, I don't think there's any quick, definite answer.

[fourdc]

I think a great understanding could be learned by reading the book "Flatland". The book is almost 100 years old. It was written by a mathematician describing a universe of 1, 2, 3 and more dimension creatures.

The hero is a 2 dimension shape who meets a 3 dimension shape and can only understand the shape in 2 dimensional terms.

If there were a greater being (or beings) we probably have too narrow a mindset to understand their being or nature. We have tried to define the greater beings in our own terms so that we can try to understand or explain.

I personally believe in a greater being. At the end of the day I am responsible to something greater than myself. That being could be defined as God, the earth, nature, the cosmos, the greater good of humanity or however it could be defined. As much as I would like it to, the universe does not revolve around me.

We humans could not prove or dispute God with our feeble thought process.

[JPnyc]

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If there were a greater being (or beings) we probably have too narrow a mindset to understand their being or nature. We have tried to define the greater beings in our own terms so that we can try to understand or explain.

A rare understanding^, in my opinion. Yes, I agree, and that's at the very base of the issue. In my opinion it's not logical that if there is a supreme being or beings, that we are able to suss, explain, or even using imagination, approximate it's mind or nature. Bravo.

[Moira]

Absolutely fourdc! That hits the nail on the head. I've said many times that for us to understand the creation of the universe is like trying to explain the Taylor series to a cat. They simply couldn't get anywhere near grasping it and I think that's the case with us. We know enough to realise there's something out there (or many of us acknowledge it) and we're able to stumble on these puzzles like the one described in horizons, but we cannot even comprehend the though processes necessary to answer them.

Whether it baffles us from a scientific point of view or moves us to believe in some force or being greater than we are, nobody has answered some of the most basic questions of all time - and I don't know that we ever will.

The more deeply I go into this stuff, the more reinforced I find my faith to be, because the God, or power I believe, in stands up to these arguments and theories where science provides a good part of the explanation but cannot quite cover all of it.

[Aardpsymon]

I tend to believe there are a number of life forms more powerful and intelligent than we are.

I agree there. Some of my list however includes rocks, pocket fluff, belly button fluff and that left sock of mine that went 3 years without a wash.

Douglas Adams put the creationist theories well in their place with something along these lines... (excuse the likely miss-quote here, but you get the point)

Believing the world was created for us because it is so perfect is like the car park puddle believing the indentation it lives in was created for it because it fits so perfectly. It will keep believing this as it slowly dries up and eventually disappears.

Point being, the world wasn't created to be perfect for us, we evolved to become "perfect" for the world. At least, we are trying. Long way left to go. I would also like to add some corrections to the initial post. Just small ones, but important.

As the article points out, the visible universe is 28 million light years apart, yet has only been in existence for 14 million light years and heat couldn't have travelled at a faster speed than the speed of light to create the equilibrium we now have between the hot and cold spots created by any "big bang".

The visible universe is 28Mly, thats not too difficult to measure.
The universe has only been in existence for 14Mly WE THINK. No proof.
WE THINK nothing can go faster than the speed of light, although it is impossible to prove a negative.

To use the domestic house cat as a victim, they probably have a similar dilema with TV. They can SEE the people in the box, but they KNOW that people are bigger than the box. They can HEAR the people in the box, but it doesn't sound like actual people. Our power to influence the box with our almighty remote controls doesn't make us omnipotent, but from the point of view of a cat it might.

Here is something else to think about. Lets say some being/beings/god/gods/God did in fact create the universe. Why? why did he/she/it/they expend all this energy?

Yes, I have thought about this before. I work in a catholic school, it comes up.

[Moira]

I disagree - I believe the world was created as a perfect place for us. But imperfection crept in and we are now facing the consequences.

Interestingly, I'm just reading about an experiment that claims to have broken the speed of light though it seems somewhat flawed.

As to why God created a perfect world for us, I don't think that's necessarily hard if you believe in a good, loving God. Don't you want to do nice things for people you love?

[MrLinus]

I disagree - I believe the world was created as a perfect place for us. But imperfection crept in and we are now facing the consequences.

Interestingly, I'm just reading about an experiment that claims to have broken the speed of light though it seems somewhat flawed.

As to why God created a perfect world for us, I don't think that's necessarily hard if you believe in a good, loving God. Don't you want to do nice things for people you love?

But that assumes a) that God exists (this has not been proven either way) b) that if God exists, this is what He/She/It wants. How do we know that we're not just some big experiment?

[Moira]

Because everything we know from the bible about God would suggest that he is a kind and loving God.

I believe the circumstantial evidence that God exists is huge. You're correct when you say nobody has disproven the existence of God though. Whether you feel there's enough there to put faith in God is a pesonal thing, however I would suggest most people who dismiss the thought out of hand haven't even opened the bible, much less studied it.

[dalek]

Because everything we know from the bible about God would suggest that he is a kind and loving God.

Who/Whom wrote that book...everything written can be taken with a grain of salt, all things written is subjective, i.e. past historians wrote from a white man's perspective, so most results were skewed in their favour, who's to say the bible was not factual but fantasy, who gives credence to the authors.A lot of what had been written is being rewritten to include those it affected the most, what historians wrote in regards to Custer is now turning out to be not the case, so just because someone wrote words and called it a bible does not make those words fact...

A lot of the earlier writings were done from memory or from stories passed down from generation to generation until clerics were able to write these stories down, but in some cases the story's facts get lost in translations or are written from a biased perspective, so until the big man/woman actually makes an appearance, I will always tend to be circumspect of anything that is preached at me...from a book that has dubious contributor's....(early spam circa 80 BC )

[MrLinus]

Because everything we know from the bible about God would suggest that he is a kind and loving God.

I believe the circumstantial evidence that God exists is huge. You're correct when you say nobody has disproven the existence of God though. Whether you feel there's enough there to put faith in God is a pesonal thing, however I would suggest most people who dismiss the thought out of hand haven't even opened the bible, much less studied it.

The Bible was written by men, not God. And while they may have written based on "the word of God" it was interpreted by men. That leaves a lot of room open for "misinterpretation", intentional or not.

Also, while faith in God is a personal thing, so is an atheist's choice not to believe in the existence of God. Because someone doesn't believe in God or dismisses the existence of God, doesn't mean they haven't read the Bible (I've read it and the Koran and while I believe in God, I do not believe in religions). I do respect others choices and would never assume that they are totally unaware of all options. I have an uncle who is an atheist and has read the Bible and can quote most of it but he still does not believe in God.