I Am An American

[khakisrule]

Canada really has no enemies. We are neutral and don't support one side and ignore the other. We don't make enemies. The only thing our mlitary does is volunteer for peace-keeping missions abroad. Who hates Canada? And it is true, the safety of north america has been sacrificed because of the US. If the US didn't have so many enemies, they wouldn't be trying to come trough Canada, and in the process putting Canada in danger.

[qinanty]

Americanism HUH!!(YES!! I SEE MY CAPS LOCK ON), so which country should I leave?

[DjM]

I was going to stay out of this but here goes. This is starting to read like an "US against THEM" thread. I am Canadian and damm proud of it, as I am sure p2p is proud to be an American. I am also pretty sure Negative is proud to be Belgium and Conf1rmed_k1ll is proud to be Australian and the Greek Goddess is proud to Greek (I think you can see where I am going with this). The AO community is made up of people from all over the world and I'm glad it is. It provides it's members with the ability to get the input, views and opinions from many different perspectives and different cultures. Even though you may disagree with those opinions AO provides you (and all it's members) with a vehicle to express those opinions. So, wherever you're from, be proud of it (or not), if you feel like waving a flag, do it, if you want to scream it at the top of your lungs, do it, or if you just want to sit back quietly and be proud, do that too. There is nothing wrong with pride, pride in your accomplishments, pride in your job, pride in your kids and pride in your country, just don't be consumed by it.


Cheers:

[Negative]

Originally posted by Shkuey
Are you talking about the "original group of people" who settled in America from Europe, or the "original group of people" who broke ties with Europe to form a government?

Actually, I used the phrase "original group of people" because I wasn't sure what you meant by the "group of people" you were talking about in

Saying that America was founded on principals of freedom of religion and all that is nice, but it's only half the story. It wasn't some crusade to bring freedom of religion to everyone, it was a group of people who had a different religion than the one imposed on them.
They were absolutely god fearing christians, to very extreme ends if you know anything about our history, and the nation was created on a god- related foundation.

"A group of people", see what I mean? I guess it all comes down to who you consider to be that 'group of people' to be, eh?

"if you know anything about our history"... I didn't know that much... I just bothered to do some research...
Oh, and here's something else: I ain't doing this because I like to argue (hrmm.. never mind... I do like to argue), I ain't doing this because of antipoints... All I'm doing this for is for my own education... And I hope somebody else will take the time to research everything I'm about to say, and tackle my point of view/historical correctness/details as much as possible, thus forcing me to do even more research... It'll be a win-win situation for both of us.

Anyways, here goes:

The first Europeans to set foot on American (the continent, that is) ground were Norse (around 985) Vikings. Although Norse sagas claim that the Vikings explored the entire East coast of America, there's no evidence to support that. I don't think they can claim to have been our "group of people"...

Next, we have the 'Spanish wave'...

The first settlements established by the conquistadors had only one purpose: provide a base for further exploration. In roughly 30 years, they conquer the entire Southern part of the current USA, and Mexico and Peru.

In the early 1520's, the French do the same with the Northern part of the current USA. Their main goal: finding a sea passage to Asia.
A French attempt by Huguenots (protestants) to establish a settlement in Florida, is seen by the Spanish as a threat to their plans. They destroy the colony in 1565.

A couple of years later, St. Augustine is founded by the Spanish, not far away from that first French colony. St. Augustine is generally considered the first permanent European settlement in what is now known as the USA.

By this time, Spain has become one of the richest European countries - thanks to the South-American colonies. This couldn't have gone unnoticed, and pretty soon other European countries start to have more interest in America.
English queen Elizabeth orders her fleet to go and "colonize the heathen and barbarous lands" in the "New World" which other European nations have not yet claimed. In 1585, the first British colony in North America is established, without success though. It will take another 20 years before a new attemp succeeds (Jamestown, 1607). Jamestown was mainly made up of adventurers more interested in gold than farming. In about three years, the town is almost completely abandond. A new attempt only succeeds because of...tobacco. In 1612, a new variety - pleasing to European taste - is developed.

By this time, we have -roughly- a Spain-occupied South and a British-occupied North.

The early 1600s saw the beginning of a great tide of emigration from Europe to North America. Spanning more than three centuries, this movement grew from a trickle of a few hundred English colonists to a flood of millions of newcomers. Impelled by powerful and diverse motivations, they built a new civilization on the northern part of the continent.

Roughly, we see three motivations for this flood:
1. Adventure, opportunities denied at home (Jamestown, first British settlements)
2. To seek the freedom to practice their religion (The LATER British settlements)
3. To escape political oppression (later British and other European settlements)

Untill now, I only see two, maybe three, valid claims for our "group of people". The Spanish and the first British settlements (and maybe that one French attempt). I think it's safe to say that none of those actor's reasons were religious...

Therefor, here's my answer to your question

Are you talking about the "original group of people" who settled in America from Europe, or the "original group of people" who broke ties with Europe to form a government?
If you mean the former then I disagree with you, if you mean the latter then I'd have to say the ideals America was created on were formed long before that happend.

If we're talking about the former, I stand by my statement that there was ABSOLUTELY NO RELIGIOUS FOUNDATION INVOLVED (hey, I can use my caps-lock too from time to time, no?). God fearing christians? Not at all, not at all...

Good, that leaves the second group ('those who broke ties with Europe to form a government'), although you say yourself that the ideals America was created on were formed long before that happened.
Most of the Founding Fathers were not christians. Most of them were deists and unitarians. Most of them believed in some kind of supreme being, but most of them rejected Jesus and both the Old and New Testament.

Here are some interesting quotes:

Thomas Jefferson
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained.

and

Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisioned ; yet we have not advanced on inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.

James Madison
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

Christians? Not at all, not at all...
The Founding Fathers despized organized religion, ALL organized religions.
And as for the Declaration of Independence: the Declaration is almost entirely based upon the works of John Locke. Locke was a product of European Enlightenment (the philosophical movement where reason is believed to have an answer for everything).

Take it for what it's worth... I actually enjoyed myself writing this.

[JiX]

Lot of people write all kinda nonsense to this thread, so I might as well post a reply

I am a finn, but I don't go in the streets waving my country's flag. I am not 'proud' to be finn. I just happen to live here, because I was born in here. I don't need to boost my ego with all this nonsense some of you are doing (and, belive me, I could if I wanted to. Even though you might not even know where Finland is, finns have made some great things including Linux . But they are not my accomplishments so I have nothing to be proud of. I don't live for my country, I don't live for anything this world offers, but seeing some nationalist fanatics make me really annoyed. I don't have anything against USA, but please don't tell me how you are better than anyone else. Now you can give me as much neg-points as you want, I don't care. I just want to bring my 2 cents into this conv.

And, I live for God, because I want to, not because my country tells me to.

[JCHostingAdmin]

It scares me how much you know Negative Your really smart dude. Who would this "group of people" be though?

[khakisrule]

Jix, why aren't you proud of your country? If finns have made something then you should be proud that your people did that. You should feel something, if you don't then thats your loss man . I for one love canada and am truly proud of it. This is a great country, and to imply that the US military is what keeps canada safe, is wrong. Just wrong. And one more thing, negative if you are belgian, why do you know all that?

[JiX]

well, maybe because I'm a freak
Actually, I am not so proud of my country, because, I can admit that, there are so many things wrong in my coutry, as I can be sure there are many things wrong in every country. One thing I hate most is corruption and when I look at the goverment, it's so corrupted and that makes me sick. Shouldn't the goverment be the head of the country?

Power and money are the ultimate corruption creators.

[DTech]

Ahh neg,
you have hit the nail on the head, sort of.
You see we USA'ers are taught that the US was founded for these Reasons(caps intentional)
Well, ok, Plymouth, and the Mass Bay Colony, were indeed founded by religious seperatists.
BUT their's was NOT A DOCTRINE OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
Thus the whole Pennsylvania thing.
The rest of the country was about the ability to make some fat cash withou having to pay the English crown.
Don't get me wrong, I love my country, (and I've lived enough other places to be able to make a VALID comparison) but saying that this country was founded for religious reasons is just plain wrong.

[str34m3r]

America was not founded on a god-related foundation. The god-related foundation was added in 1954.
- Negative (From A Discussion About The Phrase "Under God" In The Pledge Of Allegiance)
http://www.antionline.com/showthread...hreadid=231336

"I therefore beg leave to move that, henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."
- Benjamin Franklin (From His Movement To Open Each Day Of The Constitutional Convention With Prayer)
http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofhe...onvention.html

You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavor in a few words to gratify it. Here is my creed. I believe in one God, the creator of the universe. That he governs by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in
whatever sect I meet with them.
- Benjamin Franklin (From A Letter To Ezra Stiles)
http://www.worldpolicy.org/americas/...-religion.html

Side note: Of course it should be mentioned that Franklin was a deist and uneasy with organized religion. He was also an advocate of the separation between church and state, but his personal belief in God was very strong.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
- Patrick Henry (Unknown Source)
http://www.afpub.com/page12.htm

Side note: It's important to note that Patrick Henry had no problem placing his own personal beliefs along with the rights of others to their own beliefs.

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God ?..."
- Thomas Jefferson (From A Letter To George Washington)
http://library.thinkquest.org/17188/jefferson.html

Side note: I found it interesting that even Thomas Jefferson, the strongest proponent of the separation of church and state, believed so strongly that liberty in the United States was a direct result of God's blessings on America.

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"
- George Washington (From His 1789 Thanksgiving Proclamation)
http://grove.ufl.edu/~leo/washington.html

If you take the time to read many of the founding fathers writings, you will find that most of them believed very strongly in the God of the Bible and based their actions and decisions on their Christian beliefs. It's been said that 52 out of 55 of the original authors were Christians. Therefore, the Constitution of this nation and many of its laws are a direct result of Christian principles whether you like it or not. At the same time, these men made a point to discourage and prevent state sponsored religion, as was prevalent in Europe. Once again, if you read these men's writing, you'll find that the state sponsored religion that these men were afraid of is not the same state sponsored religion that people talk about these days. In modern times, any mention of God or Jesus by a public official is construed by some as state sponsored religion. In the early years, these founding fathers spoke often and spoke strongly of their convictions about God. You see, their goal was not to remove the mention of God or religion in government, but rather to keep the government from meddling in the religious beliefs of its citizens and punishing those who have differing beliefs.