Records Counter a Critic of Kerry

[netRealm]

Just for the record a Presidential canditate can win by popular vote, but lose by electoral vote.

[!mitationRust]

Originally posted here by Negative BTW: humiliation is always an opinion and never a fact.

Subjectivity is a wonderful thing, isn’t it? I love how liberals will do anything to spin and get away from the subject at hand. Good job; you’ve earned a tin-foil hat.

[moxnix]

Originally posted here by aeallison
I did not fight in the war, I was too young. Although I do have family that were their and they have also told me of some very criminal things that were done by our forces there. I will not go into detail of what I heard as I don't know how to prove or disprove it. I will say that these things were told to me over 20 years ago and that the persons whom I heard these allegations had nothing to gain by telling me about them.

aeallison, I was there. I spent a totel of approx. 18 months in Viet Nam in two different periods. As alot of vets I don't usually ever talk of any of the things I have seen or might have been a part of. But yes, there were many instances of criminal behavior on all sides. It was a war, and in war any thing goes, whether it would be considered legal or not.

Case in point, the Mie Ley (sp?) affair. The reasons for the slaugher of those villiagers might have actually been valid (at that time), but with the press there and exposing it all, it was an atrocity. I wasn't there, so I couldn't even guess what reasoning lead up to it. Being in a war zone, being shot at, seeing your buddies wounded and killed, and living in constant fear....changes everybody. What a person might do in those situations can even sicken that person years later when they look back on it, because they are not the same as they were at that particual point in time.

And yes, although I believe that every one should be accountable for their own actions, I would also state that a lot of leeway be used in judgeing how a person acted or reacted in any particular situation.

By personal observation, most of the medals received out of Viet Nam were given to officers. Most of those were undesearved, and unearned. It is like 'AO' in that reguard -- the most AP's are given to seniors and seldom are they really desearved (my apologies to the few who actually desearve what they are earning).

[Negative]

Subjectivity is a wonderful thing, isn’t it? I love how liberals will do anything to spin and get away from the subject at hand. Good job; you’ve earned a tin-foil hat.

The fact is that both sides claim to have the facts, that both sides claim the other side is lying. How's that for subjectivity?
And I'm probably even farther away from what is called liberalism in the US than you are, so keep your tin-foil hat

[The Grunt]

My father was very lucky... He was in nam for a whopping 2 days. He was in the Army working with NIKE missiles. The army decided to use them, shipped all those guys to southern nam, then 2 days later shipped them all back because they started using something else.

[RoadClosed]

aeallison,

I hope your father is well and lived well. The Florida vote was counted and counted and counted then went to the supreme court of the course of a long time. The result was the electoral votes went to Bush. That is a lot of people to be duped and subdued and, well perhaps you get my point. The electoral college is a chech in the American system. It works to a degree to make fair electoral consideration across the entire sub continent of the United States.

These guys on the boats aren't saying that crimes were not commited. Kerry came back and told his story and it was aweful. He addressed the senate and took up arms and allies against those who served. Kerry was there for FOUR MONTHS. His contact was limited and involved those who now speak. He made THEM, not everyone else but THEM the issue of his attack. They had enough. They are a small number who actually had daily contact with Kerry. It is their story, not that of the entire war.

[Negative]

Factcheck.org

At this point, 35 years later and half a world away, we see no way to resolve which of these versions of reality is closer to the truth.

So far for "facts" The factcheck.org article explains everything there is to know.

[Cybr1d]

www.wintersoldier.com and http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com have some pretty interesting facts you should check out .

Anyone read Unfit for Command yet? I just bout it, and so far it seems like a pretty good book.

[RoadClosed]

That is true negative. However Kerry could release more documentation if he chooses. Releasing the paperwork that resulted in his medals does nothing. That was ALREADY on his web site. No one disputes the validity of paperwork submited; no one believes it was forged. If Kerry chooses not to do that, it's ok he's entitled but then it leaves us to take story by story and try and deduce what is the most likely event. He (Kerry) has already changed his "seared" memory once, and there are over 200 saying one thing and Kerry and a couple of people saying another. Even his own gunner has a different perspective of what Kerry tells. It was a long time ago, but Kerry wanted us all to believe it was yesterday and seared into his mind. The cornerstone of his campaign has been his "WAR" status. I don't know how many people I talked too and listened to in the Kerry camp operate on that issue. Just wait they (swift boat guys) are releasing another ad today or next week I think.

I am sure many medals in Vietnam and other wars are not always on the level. But when you toss them away, get them back, join Jane to vindicate yourself and destroy your brothers, then use altered memories for decades in political attacks on your opponents – it just may come back on you IF, you were not always true to what you say. Versus the guy who tells a story to his kids around dinner time and lives in a small town somewhere.

//EDIT just saw the wintersoldier link

I can see why this would piss off verterans to a large degree, no matter what the circumstance surrounding it being taken, it's the present context.

[nebulus200]

I did not fight in the war, I was too young. Although I do have family that were their and they have also told me of some very criminal things that were done by our forces there. I will not go into detail of what I heard as I don't know how to prove or disprove it. I will say that these things were told to me over 20 years ago and that the persons whom I heard these allegations had nothing to gain by telling me about them.

I don't think anyone disputes that illegal/repugnant things happened in specific instances during the war in Vietnam. I think the reason that the swift boat crew has a bone to pick with Kerry is that Kerry came back from his tour (btw, how did he get out after 4 months? Or did I misread something?), my understanding is that he reported atrocities among the riverboat crews, which specifically pointed the finger at them. Now whether or not something like what Kerry described happened with the riverboat crews while he was there, I have no way of knowing. I can only say that I haven't heard of any reports on atrocities by river boat crews...(which when it comes down to it doesn't mean crap, although I have read quite a bit (a little of a war junky) and talked to several vets (some of whom were on those same type boats in the same place).

Dunno, guess I am more or less stuck in wait and see mode.

Nebulus

EDIT: Btw, I wrote that post pretty early on before I had time to watch the news. I did see an interview with that guy who said that the after action report was written by John Kerry and that he wasn't awarded the Bronze Star until his tour of duty was up and he was going home (many weeks later) and that it was based off of a junior officer that had reviewed the after action reports of the incident. He never really answered why he didn't correct the facts when he recieved the citation other than to say that he wound up leaving his citation in storage shortly after receiving it and has never looked at it since (and to mention that it wasn't the junior officer's fault, he was just reviewing the report written by Kerry).