Abolishing the USA

[webwurm99]

I am undecided.
I think that socailized medicine in this country would be riddled with the same problems as the current system. Doctors who hand out the newest medications with reckless abandon.(I was perscribed Vioxx) HMOs then work with your doctor to screw you out of the benifits you pay for.

[|3lack|ce]

Ted - I'll answer for me...

Socialized medicine works well in Canada and the UK. It's a pretty cool plan that works for them.

Personally, that's about all the good I can see in it. It lacks the American flair we like to put on things - no panache, very uncapitalist. Besides, it makes one's taxes soar to astronomical heights, which is one thing I'm quite sure no American needs or wants. Now what I'd like to see personally is the "law of supply and demand" be put into effect in medicine - let the bloody doctors and hospitals compete for their customers and their money. No more standardized rates - that's bullshit. Let them set their own prices and they'll soon figure out that they'll have no patients if they're too high, or if their standard of care is too low. The rub to that whole thing is that the insurance companies would want their insureds to go to the cheapest, while the patients themselves would want the best care. (Really, would you want to go to RipperDoc's House of Splenectomy just because your insurance told you to? Wouldn't you rather go to Surgeon George's where there's a 100% survival rate or it's free? (insert evilgrin here) ).

Suffice it to say there's no 'quick fix' for medicine in the US. Unfortunately for us to repair such a process would involve both rehashing the way medical pricing and billing is handled, as well as completely rehashing our health insurance system - everything from medicaid to BlueCross on down. The worst part of it is that it'd cost much more to rehash everything than we're already spending - so we go with the next "latest, greatest" thing to come down the pipe, that being importing those cheap drugs from our Canuckleheaded (No offense to anyone from there except our tovarich dalek) neighbors with socialized medicine (and cheap retail prices!). I see benefit to both sides of the border from such an agreement - Canada gains phat profits from mass-selling us their meds, we gain cheap meds since our own US companies want to stick it to us.

But even there there's a rub - there's a reason our dope costs more than their dope does even though it's the same effing dope...

R&D costs.

I'll leave the why as an exercise for the class since my rambling's gone on entirely too long and the (US MADE AND PURCHASED) codeine is kicking in nicely thank you.

Be Well

[edit to Wurmy since he's so fast responding] Vioxx eh? I got Celebrex. Why do our docs push those 'newer better' drugs so quickly? Because they're getting kickbacks from the drug companies for doing it, or because they honestly believe they'll work. Call your attorney and join the mass-tort lawsuit. [/edit blahblahblah]

[Egaladeist]

Hi Tedob1,

Like anything...universal health care has it's pros and cons...

first off I'd like to say that only Americans call Canadian Healthcare Socialist...not everything that involves equal distribution or fairness is socialist...
we just happen to believe that the basic necessities of life should be available for those who need them irrespective of their ability to pay...our hospitals do not turn you away or make you wait longer as a result of your ability to pay...

universal healthcare does not prevent people from choosing to pay or seek better healthcare elsewhere if they can find it...it merely protects those who can't pay from being treated differently on the basis of income...it levels the playing field...

the quality of our healthcare is extremely good...not all our hospitals may have all the gadgets but they are efficient and can serve every need that arises...Canadian healthcare consistantly ranks in the top ten in the world...

having said that...

the cons to having an efficient and reliable healthcare system that caters to everyone on the same basis...
1. we lose a lot of the best doctors and medical practicioners to the US and other Countries because they can make more money elsewhere ( like our actors and comedians and athletes...there's just a lot more money to be made south of the border )...
2. too much governmental interference and stupidity

all-in-all...I would agree with you Tedob that this system is not for the US...for the simple fact that it would not work there...
doctors in the US are too used to making hordes of money...and hospitals are too used to running themselves...to give all that money and power up over some concept that health care ought to be a right and not a privilege...at best the closest the US could ever come to a system like ours is these welfare type HMO things that provide at best sub-standard care...

if there was some way to combine the systems in some form of cross-over free trade type deal...whereby we could benefit from each others services...in my opinion...that would solve both our problems...Americans could benefit from our universal healthcare system and receive quality care...and American hospitals and doctors would benefit from having a decrease in unpaid bills...
and Canadians could benefit by charging these hospitals and doctors rate fees for every American our hospitals and doctors see...

basically, they would be sub-contracting the poor to us...and we'd be very happy to take care of them...we already do anyways ( our border hospitals are full of Americans getting free healthcare )...we might as well get paid for it...as it stands we're losing money ( we still have to replace those X-rays, etc..that are used up, not to mention other services )...we're taking care of americans who are paying no taxes into the Country and yet still reaping the benefits from it.

Eg

[webwurm99]

What about the areah in this country (and there are alot) where there is no "competition for the market"? Arent all doctors supposed to be held to the same standards anyhow? Why should someone who married rich have a right to better healthcare than me? I think there should be a deffinite standard.

And I for one would pay half my income to taxes if I didnt have to pay a third to insurance premiums. Why do we as Americans think taxes are so bad? We need to help eachother out, instead of whining about the roads, the rolling blackouts, the fat kids, public schools national security, and on, and on, and on. It takes money to fix these problems, and healthcare is no exception!!!!

[webwurm99]

[QUOTE] Originally posted here by Egaladeist
[B]Hi Tedob1,



first off I'd like to say that only Americans call Canadian Healthcare Socialist...not everything that involves equal distribution or fairness is socialist...





I always thought socialist medicine was made up by republicans to make people think "commy"

[Egaladeist]

Hi l3lacklce,

Actually we already do pay for R&D...except we do it through taxes and you do it through what you pay at the counter...like healthcare...we pre-pay, you pay as needed...

I have done some research on why American companies charge R&D mark-ups...I think a thread discussed this issue before...and quite simply Americans are getting burned...

I believe I had mentioned then that it would be like GM getting R&D money and being allowed a sanctioned mark-up to research and develop new bumpers...

drug companies are allowed to charge a surplus over and above their profit margin for R&D...whereas other companies are expected to re-invest profits to make their companies grow...

drug companies do not have to dip into their profits at all...because they are allowed to charge this surplus...and it is this surplus they can't charge other Nations...so we buy these drugs less that surcharge...they still get cost and profit...they just can't shaft us for the surcharges.

Eg

[!mitationRust]

You're right egal, that wouldn't work because nothing is FREE in this world. I'm sick and ****ing tired hearing the "poor" in this country pule and bitch and girn and moan etc... about what they get and what they don't. As if Bush isn't the biggest welfare president our nations ever seen. I'd like to drag a few of these welfare queens down to Africa in Mogadishu and show them how those people live....watch a 7 year old boy walk around with a AKSU 74 over his shoulder, spending a months militia wages on a bundle of khat to chew, sleeping on the street. Millions of children in this WORLD sleep on the streets and in jails etc... who are in conditions a BILLION times worse than the "poor" in this country. STFU, get a job, AND NO we're not bringing gifts to your pity party!

As far as entitlement spending on poverty programs is concerned, it isn't even close. In 1996, President Clinton signed a budget that directed 12.2 percent of spending be directed toward the poor. In 2004, Bush's budget kicked 2 percent more than Clinton to poverty programs, an astronomical $329 billion. In fact, President Bush is spending more on poverty entitlement programs and education than any president in history. What say you, Jesse and Howard?

For a country that is often accused by left-wing loons of not caring about the poor, we are certainly putting up a good front. In 2006, almost $368 billion dollars will go for Medicaid, food stamps, family support assistance, supplemental security income, child nutrition programs, earned income tax credits, welfare payments, child-care payments, foster care and adoption assistance, and child health insurance payments to the states. The truth is that the working men and women of this country are providing the tightest safety net in history for the poor. And our private charitable donations rank first in the world as well.

So the next time the poverty propagandists start with the "America ignores the poor," simply walk away. These people are blatantly dishonest and could not care less that America does, indeed, help the less fortunate.

From "The factor."

[Egaladeist]

Hi Imitation,

You're right nothing is free...we pay for our healthcare...it's just a portion of our taxes so we don't see a bill in the mail...but we still pay for it.

Hi webwurm99,

I like to explain it this way...there are three hungry people, one guy says to the others how much money you got? One guy says I got 50 cents, not enough to buy one of those apples in that basket. The next guy says I got 2 bucks 50, I can buy two apples. And the guy who originally asked says I got 3 bucks, I can buy 3 apples...but why don't you give me your money and if we combine it we can buy 6 apples and each have 2.
They agree...everyone gets 2 apples.
This is not socialist policy...this is what we used to call as kids before we even knew about politics...helping your friends...co-operation...having a heart...sharing...

one of the first things we were expected to learn at home and in school when I was a kid was how to share...

Eg

[webwurm99]

I guess the sarcasm didnt come through in that post.

The problem in USA would be that the drug companies and ins. companies are far to embedded in our system. Follow this: 1st people cant afford insurance. 2nd hospitals give discounts to HMOs for "volume" or some crap 3rd Hospitals file aloss on taxes for unpaid medical bills (not public record). 4th people have to pay more taxes so cant afford luxuries like health insurance. I dont even understand the logoc behind not having some sort of standardized helthcare. People seem th think that if we had a social healthcare plan then the standards would have to be low, I dont think so. Moving away from profit driven medidine would be a good start. A person should be in the medical field to help people not get rich. I wouldnt want want my police to be foused on profit, or my fire department. Why should any critical service be prorit driven in the 21st century.


Imitation,

Its not the amount that counts its the management. How much was donated to charities last year by americans? The dollar amounts are huge. How much actually goes to the poor though? Not much, I think 6% of the money that goes to the red cross helps disaster victims. How much was donated to American Cancer Society and spent on R&D for cancer drugs?
I alos like to grab arrogant rich people who say America helps the poor and take them to some parts of L.A., Queens NY, El Paso TX, and the like where 12 year old kids are carrying Tech-9S and selling crack to support their brothers an sisters. See how long yer Lexus lasts then!

[!mitationRust]

Originally posted here by Egaladeist
Hi Imitation,

You're right nothing is free...we pay for our healthcare...it's just a portion of our taxes so we don't see a bill in the mail...but we still pay for it.

Hi webwurm99,

I like to explain it this way...there are three hungry people, one guy says to the others how much money you got? One guy says I got 50 cents, not enough to buy one of those apples in that basket. The next guy says I got 2 bucks 50, I can buy two apples. And the guy who originally asked says I got 3 bucks, I can buy 3 apples...but why don't you give me your money and if we combine it we can buy 6 apples and each have 2.
They agree...everyone gets 2 apples.
This is not socialist policy...this is what we used to call as kids before we even knew about politics...helping your friends...co-operation...having a heart...sharing...

one of the first things we were expected to learn at home and in school when I was a kid was how to share...

Eg

What happened to people having contingency plans? Egal, as much as I love that never, never land logic. I don't think it's about sharing, because most everyone by human nature shares. It's the abuse of an honor "box". Like the fate of every good honor project, people abuse the system until it destructs.

How about this? Why don't they grow their own apple trees? Why do they have to pay to begin with? Everything we have is worked for, paid by someone’s labor, effort, sweat, etc... If everyone did what he or she wanted to nothing would get done. A lot of the things we have that make our life easier were made by people who didn't want to work at their job, thus we wouldn't have most of the stuff we have today if everyone did what they wanted to do.

Not all of the poor, and not only the poor do this: Sit on their fat asses playing video games all day until they get diabetes, they drink when they can't afford it, they smoke, they party hard like a teenager through life, they have to eat cheap fatty foods (nutritious food is expensive in America and it's a crime) etc...etc...etc... They knowingly harm their bodies and when their bodies break down from cancer, lung disease, heart disease, liver failure, like they were told they were, whom do they look to? Keep pumping out those babies, the poor do that so efficiently, premature babies cost a **** load because mama wanted to party with baby, who or what do they look to? Their contingency plans? Ha, I don't think so! They look to the responsible adults because "EVERYTHING MUST BE FREE IN THIS WORLD". Hell you give them an inch and they take 10 miles. I have no problem giving real poor people aid, people who have disabling mental disorders who walk through the loopholes and onto the streets. Handicap, elderly who didn't plan ahead etc.. etc.. etc.. But some lazy gangbanger having kids he can't afford because EVERYTHING IS FREE IN THIS WORLD mentality ................hell no! You can live in your squalor, your own bed you made, sleep in it. No able body is going to get a free ride off of me, not in this country. I'd rather give my money to the kids in the Philippines who live in the sewers and pick through the local landfills for food than a bunch of Nintendo playing degenerated ingrates claiming to be "poor". Take, take, take will never work when dealing with an honor system. A lot of the "poor" in this country want to live the fabulous life, and they do their best with those rental cars, designer clothes and partying goods, but none want to work for it. People run into hard times and I don't mind giving a help hand to anyone in that predicament, but like I said people abuse the system and mess it up.


Speaking of designer clothes. Did anyone read that story about two ladies in Atlanta buying two designer bags over $500 each with their FEMA cards? Two bags cost over 1K.