Roberto Calderoli: Bravest Man Alive!

[dalek]

However, when you work for someone, you are an extension of that someone.

So basically Goering and a few other henchmen who "worked " on behalf of Hitler were just following orders eh!

I am talking about news organisations, a student paper is just that as well, I am not talking about Enron, the two are diametrically opposed, companies have a vested interest in keeping secrets, the news organisations don't, quite the opposite if they are credible outlets.

So stop twisting my post about censorship, I am talking freedom of the press not freedom of the Tim Horton's employees to take smoke breaks or to hand out the secret recipe of their coffee.

"Higher level" sounds a tad bit arrogant, something a member of the KKK would say. Did Bob Woodward worry about what his editors or publishers would say, when he ran with a story about watergate based upon information that was provided by a source called "Deep Throat", they in fact supported him because this was news, a newstory about cartoons may seem ludicrous, but nevertheless it is a newsworthy story, there are lots of factors involved, notwithstanding my point about censorship, and now the part of this story is how reputable news organisations around the world or politicians are being intimidated into not following up or even writing it into their papers.

[Evil Moo]

Originally posted here by dalek
So basically Goering and a few other henchmen who "worked " on behalf of Hitler were just following orders eh!

I am talking about news organisations, a student paper is just that as well, I am not talking about Enron, the two are diametrically opposed, companies have a vested interest in keeping secrets, the news organisations don't, quite the opposite if they are credible outlets.

So stop twisting my post about censorship, I am talking freedom of the press not freedom of the Tim Horton's employees to take smoke breaks or to hand out the secret recipe of their coffee.

"Higher level" sounds a tad bit arrogant, something a member of the KKK would say. Did Bob Woodward worry about what his editors or publishers would say, when he ran with a story about watergate based upon information that was provided by a source called "Deep Throat", they in fact supported him because this was news, a newstory about cartoons may seem ludicrous, but nevertheless it is a newsworthy story, there are lots of factors involved, notwithstanding my point about censorship, and now the part of this story is how reputable news organisations around the world or politicians are being intimidated into not following up or even writing it into their papers.

You really lost me on this one, but I'll try and respond appropriately.

A news agency is different than a school. A grade-school newspaper is a joke. It's counts as an after school activity, and is the play-thing of wannabe--potential aspiring journalists. In any case, it's priority of the educational system. Should this newspaper compromise that situation, you quell it. Simple.

Also, you cannot distinguish this choice of action from an identical one made by a business since it is a private school run on funds by investors and customers (enrolled students). Public schools have little worry about allowing something controversial to be published in its walls--they are run on tax money. Private schools, must operation to a degree as a business does. This makes them completely accountable to their image to the public.

All of the students at this school still have freedom of the press. That right is nowhere near being endangered. It's garunteed. This kid is having an "employer"/editor vs. writer conflict--abundant to say the least. What can you do about it? Protest, or make your own paper. Until then, the Editor/Owner has last say--as it should be.

At surface value, this is an issue of yet again another evil overlord crushing the voice of the mere mortal. However, when you actually think about it, freedom of the press and censorship really isn't the main issue. It's a private school/business concerned about about money and success in attaining it.

KKK insinuations suprised me though. I guess Nazi would have been too cliche these days.

[Cybr1d]

whoever is offended by the cartoons, should drink some draino..and go **** themselves.

Nuff said.

[dalek]

In any case, it's priority of the educational system. Should this newspaper compromise that situation, you quell it. Simple.

So what your saying, is it's okay to censor free thought, what message is it sending to the younger generation if administration continually arbitrarily stop the reporting of news worthy items. You may think that the story has no legs, but others may not hold the same views as you, and would like to hear or read the story and make their own judgement on wether the story was credible. If it isn't I am sure that the writer's career as an aspiring journalist will be limited or cut short.

But don't cut off legitimate debate, because you may think it will upset (shareholders) others.

Private schools, must operation to a degree as a business does. This makes them completely accountable to their image to the public.

Bollocks, do you really think the average joe/sue give's a sh*t about a private schools activities, I suppose they would if it was found out that it was a place of learning where nasty things went on, but then how would they find out, unless someone wrote about it......

However, when you actually think about it, freedom of the press and censorship really isn't the main issue. It's a private school/business concerned about about money and success in attaining it.

By invoking the "I am the Shool Administrator" and you will not write or publish what I consider to be not newsworthy, you say this isn't about censorship? What would you consider censorship then.....?

KKK insinuations suprised me though. I guess Nazi would have been too cliche these days.

If you took this personally then sorry, however, I was referring to the KKK in the context of the term you used "Higher Level" as racist in itself, in other words those that are not at that level are beneath you/them, that is arrogance......and I suppose I could have used Hitler as a reference as opposed to the KKK, or I could have used Mensa, elitist type thinking.Take your pick...

[Evil Moo]

I think you're losing concept of the scope of this incident. I'll quote respective paragraphs in their entirety vs. the parts that were useful to you.

Originally posted here by Evil Moo
A news agency is different than a school. A grade-school newspaper is a joke. It's counts as an after school activity, and is the play-thing of wannabe--potential aspiring journalists. In any case, it's priority of the educational system. Should this newspaper compromise that situation, you quell it. Simple.

All of the students at this school still have freedom of the press. That right is nowhere near being endangered. It's garunteed. This kid is having an "employer"/editor vs. writer conflict--abundant to say the least. What can you do about it? Protest, or make your own paper. Until then, the Editor/Owner has last say--as it should be.

This is a grade school kid rehashing CNN as his own opinion. Words and news sources that are abundant, respectable, and actually matter have already made the situation known to the entire world. This is a grade school newspaper. If the kid wants to express dissent and "inform" his school population of preteen and child peers..fine. He can do that without pictures. If he can't, then the pictures wouldn't aid his message anyway.

This paper isn't a "debate"; it's a message representing the school. If that vigilante message does upset "shareholders" then it's a very good reason to rebuke it. I can imagine a coach saying, "I'm sorry guys. The basketball is now disbanded because the school can't afford to pay for our gear, faculities, or my salary because Timmy wanted to feel important and sophisticated with his regurgitated opinion. Go back to watching TV, vandalizing, or other wastful activities that came before this program funded by the school."

You're right about the average joe not caring about this school and being of little or no consequence to the school. However, very rarely does the "average joe" enroll their childen in private school.

Motive and intention behind censorship does matter. Someone can shout anti-censorship rhetoric all they want, but there is a difference between: "I disagree with what you say, therefore you cannot say it" and "Your rehashed message does nothing to inform the public and will only potentially endanger this school".

Both are censorship, the former being the illegitimate reason. The second being a logical, mature, and ultimately wiser and more responsible choice.

Risking a school's ability to function and the future education of the many children for the sake of a single kid's opinion via an after-school program is not logical, responsible, mature, or wise.

PS: Call it arrogant, condescending, etc, but not everyone does think at a "higher level". If they did, these cartoons would never have been an issue to begin with. Just because we all have equal rights in our respective countries, does not mean everyone thinks, earns, speaks, acts, or operates at the same levels. Thus, the majority populations of sheep must be accounted for and respected. If everyone were at the calibre of most of the members in these forums, the world would not be the place it is today.

[dalek]

Maybe I didn't express myself in words you could understand Evil Moo, might be because I never went to "college", this whole little side debate that is going on is way off of my original intent, the purpose of my post wasn't so much about some kid in school having his editorial squashed by the administration, as it was about how this whole story of running the cartoons and the fact that the islamists were using intimidation tactics to have news organisations "not" run the story because they were offended.The gist of what I was trying to say, was that news organisations no matter wether it is a school paper or CNN should not let what is clearly intimidation by fanatics scare them into shutting up.

This whole argument about businesses and private schools was not the issue, the issue is clearly knowing when to tell the story or not....when news organisiations bury their heads in the sand and let fanatics dictate what they can talk about or not talk about, then this becomes censorship, at the point of a gun.

So I didn't lose "scope" of this incident, if anything you took the wrong turn on my post and made it into your story, about some snot nosed kid having his arse spanked by the school administration because he tried to run with a story, and that being a private school they can do that, I wasn't disagreeing with that, what I was disagreeing with was the administrators motives, was it because it would bring the school into disrepute or was it because they didn't want to cause waves, or upset the apple cart.And if the school as an example wants to let their studenst debate the merits of current affairs, then why not, because some religious zealots say you can't, so to me this is wrong.

[imported_Remote_Access]

Where oh where to begin. You've all gone so far off topic I don't know who or what I should reply to first. Yea, I think the guy wearing the shirt sure does have a brass set of balls. If you think the Muslims are making too big of a deal about it then you haven't though about the issue very much. What if it was an Arab who drew some cartoons of Jesus or Mary doing something politically incorrect? The West would be pissed! I don't know exactly whom said which of these statements but as I read through all of these posts, these are the statements that stuck out:

"Frankly, those who are protesting, be it peacefully or violently, are showing themselves for exactly what they are....Intolerant..." I was thinking something more like, enlightened.

I do argree with part of what you said:

"People who are intolerant of things only put up with them for so long..."

Yep.

- The thing is, what if the shoe was on the other foot.....what if every time a Muslim insulted a Christian and we turned out onto the streets, and violently rioted, and burned their embassies or mosques.

We don't? The more they resist and protest, the more we bomb, destroy, and murder. Mosques, embassies, schools, & hospitals!


- Their is no rational amongst the so called elders of this religion, if Catholics were to start rioting, all it would take would be one word from the Pope (stop) and the rioting would stop, why because Christianity does believe it or not, listen to their Church leaders, most times.

I have to disagree. There are rational elder leaders, you just don't want to listen to them. Yeah sure some of the Catholics would stop, but the ones with a mind of their own would not. Believe it or not, all Catholics are not sheep. Now the last part of your statement is what gets me. If you seriously listened to church leaders MOST TIME, the U.S. wouldn't have so many problems. I smell BS. Well someone did hit the nail on the head here:

- Democracy is more of a Western ideal. Most of these Middle Eastern countries do not have true democratic government.

If you think about it, we don't either. We do not have a true democracy either.
This is another thing I wanted to address:

-Hmmmm, as I see it, the main problem is that these people who are demonstrating don't even know the tenets of their own religion.How many of them could cite the six pillars of Islam?

Heh, can you with out useing a search engine? Can YOU name the 12 sermons on the mound? Do YOU really know the tenets of YOUR religion? Remember no search engine and if you have to look it up in your bible it doesn't count either. You may cheat and use either one, but you are only cheating yourself. Moveing forward:

- Instead of burning down embassys to get noticed, why don't they make an advance in sience, technology, music, literature, government, etc etc.

Yeaaaaah um.. how do you reccomend they get funding? How are they supposed to make any kind of advance while they're constantly under attack? It's hard to do research under those conditons. Don't you think?

- I'm not sure where the phrase originated, but a massive glass parking lot keeps looking more and more attractive. I only imagine that desire to become more proliferate once alternate fuel sources are maintained.

That was mildly humorus the first time I heard it also but it isn't a phrase I would use in a duel of wits over eastern philosophy. The thing is, we haven't found an alternative fuel source adequate enough to take the place of oil. My guess is that we won't.

- What is most astonishing to me is that there are still people in western
Europe and America who still beleive that this is all our fault,
and that we need to further compromise our laws and traditions
to restore "peace" When are we going to burn their embassies?


It isn't? We're innocent right? Actually we've been bombing embassies, mosques, civilian houses, and more since 9/11. So, cheers, I hope it makes you day.

- Can we just go take the oil and leave them to play in the sand?
(not out of context )
Wasn't that the purpose since the begining?


- I've adapted my illegal immigrant idea to deal with these protestors.
Anyone protesting in a violent fashion is clubbed to the ground and dragged to a holding cell before being shipped to the coast. Each of these protestors is then given a free ticket to leave the country via a large catapult or trebuchet. Anyone protesting as a bomber is attached to a cheap MK-84 bomb and flicked towards Mecca before being martyred by remote control. The rest of them can swim for it after they get dropped in the North Sea.

Actually that first part isn't far from the truth. Protestors, violent or not, are usually clubbed to the ground and dragged to jail. I think alot of us would leave if we had a large magical catapult to launch us over seas and land safely. I wish it were that easy. The rest of your illegal immigrant idea just sounds like jibberish and I cannot force my IQ down low enough to come up with a reply you would understand. By the way, Robin Williams' plan is stupid.

OH! OH! I almost forgot!

-
Seriously though, this is the major stumbling block for the majority of Islamists, they have been fed crap for so long it would take years to debrief or what's the word they use when they rescue kids from those cults, sort of unbrainwash them.

Seriously? If you want to look at who eats the most crap, let's take a look at the U.S. and other Western countries. How long would you estimate for it to take to debrief or "unbrainwash" them?

- Yeah, they might take hostages and cut off some heads. In fact maybe we
are all taking a big risk over this "free speech" ****. Better to be quiet
and hope they don't beat the door down in the middle of the night
and drag you away. After all "free speech ain't worth dying for is it?

Yes.


- whoever is offended by the cartoons, should drink some draino..and go **** themselves. (not out of context )

Freedom of speech at its finest.


edit:
OH, if you go back and read the whole post from the author I quoted, my comments still address the same issue and most of my replies weren't out of context.. very much.

[dalek]

We don't? The more they resist and protest, the more we bomb, destroy, and murder. Mosques, embassies, schools, & hospitals!

Some examples please....

I have to disagree. There are rational elder leaders, you just don't want to listen to them

Can you name name's for these elders that are reining in their flocks...

If you think about it, we don't either. We do not have a true democracy either

Define a true democracy, or show the difference between a theocracy and a democracy...

Yeaaaaah um.. how do you reccomend they get funding? How are they supposed to make any kind of advance while they're constantly under attack? It's hard to do research under those conditons. Don't you think?

Last time I checked a barrell of crude was approx $70.00 USD, they are swimming in money.

That was mildly humorus the first time I heard it also but it isn't a phrase I would use in a duel of wits over eastern philosophy. The thing is, we haven't found an alternative fuel source adequate enough to take the place of oil. My guess is that we won't.

Read up on Ethanol.....

Seriously? If you want to look at who eats the most crap, let's take a look at the U.S. and other Western countries. How long would you estimate for it to take to debrief or "unbrainwash" them?

Have you not seen the newsclips of the imans/clerics teaching the Koran to children in Pakistan/Afghanistan (taliban style) where they drone on day to day reciting verses until it's drilled into their heads????


Oh by the way, it would help if you were able to not quote out of context, if you are going to resurrect an old thread, makes it easier for everyone else involved with this thread to be able to catch up to who said what..and respond in kind....

[imported_Remote_Access]

Source October 31st enters a figure of 15 civilians dying in a bombing attack of a Red Crescent hospital in Kandahar.

"The Pentagon said the strike missed both the hospital and another Red Crescent building nearby, and commented "it was a legitimate terrorist target, intentionally struck.." Journalist later saw a large crater in the center of the clinic and hospital vehicles crushed by collapsed masonry. One doctor reported 15 dead and 25 seriously injured.

Apparently they didn't miss.

On November 17th, massive carpet-bombing of Khanabad in Kunduz province, killed over 150 civilians. The Afghan hospital system had collapsed by late October under the bombing onslaught as hospital staff fled for safety.

The strategic U.S. bombing of Afghanistan has been guided by two concerns: (1). The U.S does not want to lose any combat troops; and (2) it does not want to loose expensive and technologically sophisticated aircraft. Hence, the hi-tech bombing carried on from above 30'000 feet where anti-aircraft guns and Stinger missiles cannot reach. In other words, unwilling to risk "our" pilots and planes, U.S war strategists cannot help but hit "their" mud homes, apartment complexes, bus stations, oil tanker trucks, buses and tractors, Red Crescent clinics, hospitals, mosques, schools, religious institutions [madaris and madrassas], Red Cross warehouses, etc.. On November 11th, U.S. planes bombed a bus carrying fleeing refugees on the north road out of Kabul, carrying fleeing refugees: 35 died

There's a plethora of other sources. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&h...ombing&spell=1
Results 1 - 10 of about 5,050,000 for afghanistan hospital bombing. (0.28 seconds)

Let's take a look at Iraq for a second:
http://www.google.com/search?hs=ih3&...ng&btnG=Search
Results 1 - 10 of about 10,700,000 for iraq hospital bombing. (0.18 seconds)

Surely 15,750,000 websites aren't lieing. To answer your second question, no. I cannot. I'm not a Muslim so there for I wouldn't know. Theocracy is the belief in government by divine guidance or ruled by religious authority. As for democracy, there are many different forms of democracy. In it's simpelest definition it is majority rule by the COMMON people. This is for another thread entirely.

THEY are not seeing a dime of that blood money. THEY LIVE IN MUD HUTS FFS!
Take a drive in downtown bagdad and do a survey of how much money the adverage joe blow guy makes.

OH GREAT AND WONDERFUL ETHANOL! OUR SAVIOUR!!! I'll believe it when I see it. It looks good on paper but I don't think it will happen any time soon.

Yes, I've seen the clips. It reminded me of Catholic schools but with out the nice uniforms and fancy church.

[dalek]

"The Pentagon said the strike missed both the hospital and another Red Crescent building nearby, and commented "it was a legitimate terrorist target, intentionally struck.." Journalist later saw a large crater in the center of the clinic and hospital vehicles crushed by collapsed masonry. One doctor reported 15 dead and 25 seriously injured.

Collateral damage...sh*t happens, they do not as a rule target these institutions on purpose, unlike terrorists, who make a point of targeting the most vulnerable.....

On November 17th, massive carpet-bombing of Khanabad in Kunduz province, killed over 150 civilians. The Afghan hospital system had collapsed by late October under the bombing onslaught as hospital staff fled for safety.

Again collateral damage, unfortunatley the Taliban and insurgents know only too well that the best places to hide is under the skirts and behind the children, usually the cowards way of putting up a resistance. Again I don't believe we are intentionally targetting these places because intel say's that the only people there are the sick and wounded and dying, more likely the hospital was a place for the insurgents to hang out.

The strategic U.S. bombing of Afghanistan has been guided by two concerns: (1). The U.S does not want to lose any combat troops; and (2) it does not want to loose expensive and technologically sophisticated aircraft.69 Hence, the hi-tech bombing carried on from above 30'000 feet where anti-aircraft guns and Stinger missiles cannot reach. In other words, unwilling to risk "our" pilots and planes, U.S war strategists cannot help but hit "their" mud homes, apartment complexes, bus stations, oil tanker trucks, buses and tractors, Red Crescent clinics, hospitals, mosques, schools, religious institutions [madaris and madrassas], Red Cross warehouses, etc.. On November 11th, U.S. planes bombed a bus carrying fleeing refugees on the north road out of Kabul, carrying fleeing refugees: 35 died

Why not bomb, if it means saving the troops on the ground, Afghanistan is rife with mountainous regions and as the Soviets found out, can hide a lot of people, so carpet bombing is probably the best solution..

THEY are not seeing a dime of that blood money. THEY LIVE IN MUD HUTS FFS!
Take a drive in downtown bagdad and do a survey of how much money the adverage joe blow guy makes

That is their problem, the former government probably spent their share on ...tanks...jets...chemical weapons....uranium...etc. and as far as I can see Saudi Arabia has some very nice looking mud huts, the same with Kuwait, and Baghdad did at one time as well, and the insurgents are getting their share of the funds from somewhere (Iran/Libya/Egypt/Saudi Arabia etc.)

OH GREAT AND WONDERFUL ETHANOL! OUR SAVIOUR!!! I'll believe it when I see it. It looks good on paper but I don't think it will happen any time soon

Ethanol read up on it, Brazil could be non dependant on foreign oil because of ethanol, it was in the news recently, and as they stated, if the US wanted to, they could also combine ethanol with oil and reduce their dependancy on foreign oil, and if they did, then they wouldn't need to suck up to Saudi Arabia and the other middle eastern countries.

Yes, I've seen the clips. It reminded me of Catholic schools but with out the nice uniforms and fancy church

Until you have experienced being taught by Nuns, can't argue with you on this one....