Should Gary McKinnon be tried in the US

[nihil]

I'm in England and I infiltrate/damage in the USA across the border. Where am I tried? How is this confusing?.....

It isn't.................it is the internet, which does NOT have conventional boundaries and is not governed by international law. To imply that geographical boundaries delimit the internet is patently flawed.

For extradition to be in any way valid, the alleged activity must be illegal in the country in which it was initiated and would need to be tried and proven there.

The USA does NOT own the World and has no damn right trying to impose its laws on UK citizens resident in the UK. We have our own laws thank you very much.

Think about it folks, how many US journalists, authors and broadcasters have been extradited to China for criticising the regime there? It is illegal in China

The issue here is one of jurisdiction and extradition of YOUR OWN CITIZENS to be tried by a foreign court. Where they were actually resident in the country where they comitted the offence, the case is reasonably clear cut, except for religious and political "crimes".

Where there was a crime, it is where it was comitted that is important. The argument about shooting people across borders is spurious, it is an offence both sides, and it is the side where the gunman was positioned that is the determining factor.

[Tiger Shark]

One could postulate that the reason the USA wants to extradite him is because the Brits decided not to go forward with prosecution in 2002...

McKinnon was first arrested in 2002 but action against him was discontinued.

... So the USA began gathering the evidence to make a case, then it started extradition proceedings which take forever and now we are getting to the point where the extradition hearing is imminent... Four years is hardly a long time when we are talking about lawyers, lawyers fees and governments.

If the authorities in the country where the crime was commited from won't punish then it is quite reasonable for the country that fell victim to wish to attempt to punish. I have no problem with it. Had Britain done the right thing in the first place we wouldn't be talking about this now.

[nihil]

Had Britain done the right thing in the first place we wouldn't be talking about this now.

I am sure that they did, and that our Crown Prosecution Service is no different from similar bodies across the World. They will not pursue a "no win" case, that is, lacking in admissible evidence............. or, in this case I would suspect just lacking in evidence.

So the USA began gathering the evidence to make a case, then it started extradition proceedings

Well, they certainly took their time The onus should now be on them to prove to the satisfaction of a British court that British law was broken. American law is irrelevant, as the guy is a British citizen, and did what he did whilst on British soil.

A further complication is that I suspect that the offences were prior to current extradition arrangements. We generally don't backdate laws over here The subtlety there is that the guy was actually arrested , which puts a timestamp on the case. Under our rules, if he had gone on the run and only got arrested last week, then current legislation would apply.

Also, the proceedings thus far have been on the validity of the extradition application NOT on the validity of the charges.

[Noia]

TECHNICALY speaking, no harm was done. And I would also like to point out that he is being used by the american government to try and gain political power by appearing strong by crusifying this guy.

There are specific laws to deal with this kind of incident, lets use those rather than handing him over to the US.

[Relyt]

Originally posted here by Noia
TECHNICALY speaking, no harm was done....
There are specific laws to deal with this kind of incident, lets use those rather than handing him over to the US.

Oh come on now, granted they may be inflated but he did toss things around a bit.

The US in its case for extradition said Mr McKinnon caused more than $700,000 (£375,235) of damage while exploring the computer networks at various US military institutions.

It said one attack at the Earle Naval Weapons Station took place soon after September 11, 2001 made it impossible to use critical systems. The US Department of Justice said it took a month to get systems working in the aftermath of this attack.

Regardless, I'm all for having it disposed of over there. But you have to have Nihil as the Judge (especially during sentencing) and Tiger Shark as the prosecutor.

[The Texan]

For extradition to be in any way valid, the alleged activity must be illegal in the country in which it was initiated and would need to be tried and proven there.

The USA does NOT own the World and has no damn right trying to impose its laws on UK citizens resident in the UK. We have our own laws thank you very much.

Think about it folks, how many US journalists, authors and broadcasters have been extradited to China for criticising the regime there? It is illegal in China

The issue here is one of jurisdiction and extradition of YOUR OWN CITIZENS to be tried by a foreign court. Where they were actually resident in the country where they comitted the offence, the case is reasonably clear cut, except for religious and political "crimes".

Where there was a crime, it is where it was comitted that is important. The argument about shooting people across borders is spurious, it is an offence both sides, and it is the side where the gunman was positioned that is the determining factor. [/B][/QUOTE]

What assurance do we in the US have the the UK will actually try him and give a damn? this crime wasnt committed against their country so they really have no incentive to really punish him at all? the only thing that will even spur them to give him a harsh punishment ( if he is tried there) is that the world is watching them.

[nihil]

Well Tex~

What assurance do we in the US have the the UK will actually try him and give a damn? this crime wasnt committed against their country so they really have no incentive to really punish him at all? the only thing that will even spur them to give him a harsh punishment ( if he is tried there) is that the world is watching them.

That one is easy.............

Why are British soldiers dying in Afghanistan and Iraq on a daily basis, alongside American forces, even as we speak?

I am sure that this guy would have been prosecuted, but the US government bodies did not provide the evidence and support that was required. They were the ones who "did not give a damn" as it goes.............. seems that it might even have been their security policy back then?

Why did they not provide the evidence on a timely basis?
Why did they not support their British colleagues in putting together a concrete prosecution?

There is some serious a$$ covering being attempted here, and our courts should not support it, nor I hope will they, other than it will produce a total meltdown of the trash who have been mismanaging this country for the last 10 years or so.

Unfortunately, the repercussions will mean that you will not be getting any British support in future.............. OH well! just re-introduce the draft and you can make up for that?

This case has bugger all to do with justice folks; this is pure politics, please trust me on that.

Another technical problem over here, is that the proceedings seem to have gone too far into our legal system. The guy was arrested and arraigned AFAIK, so there is still a "pending case" in our legal system. If the case was formally dropped then the extradition must die with it? So, it must be brought to "completion" in OUR courts, FIRST, or I am certain that our Appeals Court will throw it out.

Now, there is plenty of precedent for a person being dealt with by his local judicial system first and then being extradited/deported . Obviously that would be a far more acceptable scenario for the politicos? It provides a level of impartiality and credibility, does it not? We would have to avoid any question of "double jeopardy", so our action would be relatively technical and low key.

This is something of a politically sensitive area here, as our street thug Home Secretary just got fired because foreign criminals were not being deported.

Our politicians are no different from yours, they look after themselves first.

That's life (pond life )

[The Texan]

Nihil, I do see your point and just so you know I have no problem with the UK or it citizens, you included . I wonder could he be tried in both places? i.e. he gets a 30 year prison sentence and spends 15 of it in the UK and the other 15 in the US. or is that not feasible?

edit/ I also appreciate the support yall have given us in Iraq and elsewhere.

[nihil]

Hmmm,

I wonder could he be tried in both places?

That is also easy, provided that the "double jepoardy" issue is avoided. That says that you cannot be charged/tried for the same crime twice.

Now, he has committed some relatively minor offences over here, so that would be irrelevant, and he couldn't even be charged with them in the US, as they relate to local (UK) usage. They would not interfere at all.

As for the USA, We would want the heads of at least one senior politicion............"condom rice" would do nicely, if we cannot have monkeyface/brain.

And a clean sweep of the garbage who let this happen................that means 2/3/4 star generals. And some "suits"

News just came on ...........SEVEN of our people died in Iraq this week..........???????????????????

As soon as this crap hits our appeals court, then the substance behind the case will be brought up. That is when the problems will start.

Please think about this:

IT DID NOT TAKE FOUR YEARS FOR THE US AND UK TO INVADE IRAQ



This will be brought up during the term of a government about to lose power..............probably two governments?

[ZT3000]

I feel a crime is punishable based on the local or national laws of it's origin, with exception.

I also feel that in the case of egregious crimes crossing local or national authoritative boundaries or acts by citizens of another locality, the authorities involved must have implemented statutes of extradiction based on official written agreements which are not politically motivated as their source. There must be sufficient legal/moral grounds for the extradition based on both countries laws.

An example of civil crime punishable locally?
A young boy of Colorado shoots a BB gun at tin cans which are only 50ft away but across a state borderline, say Utah, where it's illegal to own or operate a BB gun. What authority does the Utah deputy have if he encounters the boy?

An example of a felonious crime, with complicated extradiction?
A man commits the murder of his family, depletes his bank account and runs away to another country with a lover. In the new country, he has multiple disagreements with his lover and soon enough kills her too. He then hides in another overseas country to escape prosecution. In the final country, he assaults a few people in a pub, one severely, and is hauled into jail. If all 3 countries get word of his whereabouts, to whom is he liable for legal punishment and how do the authorities work this out?

There are far more situations people can get themselves into then laws that strictly apply to a situation and it appears to me, because of this, some laws are applied to cases that are much more "gray" than black and white. In the US, a substantial portion of court judgements are made from case law as we go along and case law has a hefty authoritative weight.

Even so, I believe from a moral/ethical standpoint there should be justice, but how justice is worked out may depend on more than one authority and not every one will be satisfied.

Now that I'm back on the posted subject, I don't know enough of the tangible damage Gary McKinnon caused but I would leave it to the UK authorities to decide if he's extraditable. If the UK decides there is insufficient cause for extradition, then I agree with them. The US should take the proverbial pie in the face, fix their seemingly inadequate security and FIRE the IT directors/technicians responsible for post-911 security laxness.

Simply my feelings based on my limited knowledge of law and justice.

**No suspects or inmates were hurt in the creation of this post**