Errr... Canadians...

[Tiger Shark]

Ok... I've been patient as hell... really frigging patient... and no-one has bothered to bring this up... So I'm going to...

17 people arrested in Toronto after purchasing the AN for ANFO from the RCMP... Only three frigging tons of the bastard... Three times the Oklahoma City bomb...

I find it funny that our numerous Canadian friends who thought they were immune to "this kind of thing" find themselves the potential victims...

What's _even_ funnier has been the "we're holier than thou" attitude those Canadian friends have had when it come to the "your government is spying on you" issue... Yet... Having professed so loudly that your good Canadian government doesn't do that but the nasty, nasty Bush government does... it seems that those nice friendly Home Grown Islamist terrorists were caught by the Canadian government spying on their internet activity...

I thought such egregious breaches of Canadian's civil rights never did and could never occur...

Comments???

/stirring pot

Have at it Girls and Boys.... You know who you are... And remember... I'm a Brit!!!!

[Striek]

I thought such egregious breaches of Canadian's civil rights never did and could never occur...

They did not. This monitoring was done with very scrupulous judicial oversight. Warrants were issued, just cause was demonstrated in a court of law.

We do indeed have the capability to monitor our citizens' Internet (or otherwise) activity. What we do not have is a system of laws that allows that monitoring to be conducted without judicial oversight. We as a country believe that no citizens' civil right should be violated without just cause. This is a case where there was indeed just cause.

I am sure that down south, you also need just cause before your spy agencies will be permitted to do this. However, you have far less judicial oversight, and a far greater chance for the abuse of said power. But where we differ most is in our definitions of "just cause". Before allowing this kind of monitoring, a Canadian agency must prove, in a court of law, that the people and/or organizations they wish to monitor pose a real and present danger to Canada and/or its allies. They must further prove specifically what threat this is.

I believe we set a higher standard for "just cause" than Americans do; hence the "holier than thou" attitude some of us carry.

[Relyt]

It doesn't matter which country you are in, you are not immune to the terrorist. Hopefully you can round em all up before they blow something important up and kill many. But don't sit on your backsides about this, you are in their sights as much as we are. Civil rights for terrorists? No, use any means to curtain their activity. What are they going to do, sue ya?

cheers

[Tiger Shark]

Before allowing this kind of monitoring, a Canadian agency must prover, in a proper court of law, that the people and/or arganiozations they wish to monitor pose a real and present danger to Canada or its allies. They must further prove specifically what threat this is.

Ahhh... Hoisted on your own petard.... The proof that they should be monitored came from the monitoring of the internet traffic...

The Canadian government watches it's own citizens just the same as any other... and they are smart to do so....

The "joke" is that your society doesn't allow that information to be as freely available as America does... So you think you are 'safe" and happy because your press doesn't tell you things you "shouldn't know"... while the American press is more free and honest... Which is the ultimate "controller of government"

I just love you Canadians... So self righteous when you talk about a _single_ president of the USA...

Next!!!!

[dalek]

Ahhmmm at least we caught them?

We have always known that our version of your CIA/NSA/FBI/DEA/ did I forget anyone oh yeah Homeland Security..CSIS has been doing this sine the 70's when it was the RCMP who found themselves with all sorts of new powers thanks to Trudeau and the FLQ...

I am only dissapointed I never got to see them behead Harper on live TV from the Parliement Buildings..seems they weren't familiar with Ottawa..oh well...

As to the Holier_then_Thou attitude...it's more a jeesus you guy's should wake up before the "Homeland Security" people have it so you will need to "let me zee your pepers please" everyday you got to work...

But while we are on the "Holier_Then_Thou_ kick (due to medication I would bet...Lol) who was it just after 9/11 that accused us of allowing these people into the US? you guy's thought nothing of ripping us in the media (left and right), and then when it turns out they were all in the US and learning how to fly planes from US instructors, did we hear anything after that..nope..now it's a fence...you guy's are hemorraging in the South and you want to put the band-aid on the North...Doh....that's just silly...

Apparently these idiots have been under surveillance for quite some time, and rightly so, but as I said....bottom line...we caught them, and the UK caught some more...hope you guy's catch whoever is ready to let loose in the US....

Edit: I believe the reason we may bitch about the US Gov't's head long downward spiral into lost civil liberties, is that it will have a ripple effect, and we will end up with the consequences...

[debwalin]

My question is why are we sending so many Natl Guard troops to the Mexican border and spending millions to build a wall to keep homeless Mexicans out. Wouldn't it seem that perhaps the Canadian border would be a little more prudent? So far we haven't really heard of a lot of terrorists coming thru the Mexican border. I mean who the hell would - it's 500 miles of desert in most places, not quite the same as living in a nice comfy Canadian apartment and driving across the border in an air conditioned car.

[Egaladeist]

Well...TS...you couldn't be refering to me

Of course I have never said personally that things don't happen...because I know they do...in fact the RCMP got into a lot of trouble about 20 years ago for violating the Postal Laws by redirecting and opening people's mail.

But then the RCMP has always thought of themselves as an international body on the world scene not subject to Canadian Law themselves.

A few years back they were used to pepper spray a bunch of protestors in Vancouver at the bequest of our beloved PM.

They are for all intense purposes a sacred cow...that can get away with pretty much anything with just a slap on the wrist.

But...in their defense...as much power and authority they do possess they rarely use it, albeit occasionally do, for abusive ends.

By all accounts...compared to similar organizations...with the same amount of power...they are pretty mild...but not blameless

Historically, we have always been more liberal in our thinking than Americans...and this is not a stab at Americans who also have their strong points...whether we are talking about social policy or general law.

Eg

[dalek]

Originally posted here by debwalin
My question is why are we sending so many Natl Guard troops to the Mexican border and spending millions to build a wall to keep homeless Mexicans out. Wouldn't it seem that perhaps the Canadian border would be a little more prudent? So far we haven't really heard of a lot of terrorists coming thru the Mexican border. I mean who the hell would - it's 500 miles of desert in most places, not quite the same as living in a nice comfy Canadian apartment and driving across the border in an air conditioned car.

You really think we (US and Canada) don't have a mutually vested interest in the security of the Northern Border, I would be willing to bet, that more terrorists come through the gates in Tiajauna then Windsor Ont.

The hot spot for international criminals is Mexico City.....and as our two countries do a billion dollars in trade goods daily (a tad bit more then Mexico I dare say), you would be willing to jeopardise this? and oh it's a two way border in case you didn't know....so any morons who are on the hit parade still have to get by an American Border Guard, that's on your side of the border....

[Striek]

The proof that they should be monitored came from the monitoring of the internet traffic.

Said traffic was passing through public servers. There is no expectation of privacy when using someboy else's servers to pass traffic. Both our countries have precedent set in that regards.

You cannot communicate over the Internet without people seeing what you are doing. Once the data leaves your terminal and enters the public domain, it is in plain view, much like an officer of the law cannot search my car without cause, but he can sure look through the window. I see no violation of civil rights where public Internet monitoring is concerned.

I was more speaking of the further monitoring the conducted, a la phone taps and video surveillance and whatnot. However, I am quite sure they were monitored at a service provider level as well, and that before doing this, they used publicly collected information to justify a warramt.

[debwalin]

Originally posted here by dalek
You really think we (US and Canada) don't have a mutually vested interest in the security of the Northern Border, I would be willing to bet, that more terrorists come through the gates in Tiajauna then Windsor Ont.

The hot spot for international criminals is Mexico City.....and as our two countries do a billion dollars in trade goods daily (a tad bit more then Mexico I dare say), you would be willing to jeopardise this? and oh it's a two way border in case you didn't know....so any morons who are on the hit parade still have to get by an American Border Guard, that's on your side of the border....

While I agree that no, they didn't make it thru the Canadian border - I would be willing to bet they had a pretty good plan on how to do it. I just think it's ludicrous to spend the amount of money that's being spent to "secure" an area of our border that will never be fully secured when we've had no real indication that we're being threatened by terrorists from that side of our border. It's more of the same smoke-blowing, distract everyone from the real facts kind of politics that have led to the same sex marriage ban and changing the Constitution to dictate who can marry whom. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

Keep in mind I'm not criticizing Canada - the US can't even keep terrorists out of our own country, who are we to criticize you - at least you caught them before they blew anything up - but it's the thinking behind the politics that drives me mad.