Why is it so hard to get some prescription drugs in the needed quantities?

[Moira]

I don't think Dr Collis or codeine cough linctus are available as OTC medicines even with a pharmacist present now you can buy pseudo codeine linctus, ie not the real thing.

I used to work for two doctors and it was amazing how they would pontificate about the over prescribing of certain medicines (notably antibiotics and benzos) yet when it was their sore throat or inability to sleep, then they took everything going!

I am downloading a brilliant 20 minute Penn and Teller programme called Bullshit - The War on Drugs. It makes some excellent points and is well worth viewing. I'll upload it onto my site when this torrent has finished and post a link.

[gore]

Benzodiazepines are VERY addcitive, I'd put them next to Heroin, it only takes two weeks of use to become addicted physically and emotionally. Codeine.... Ehhh, I don't think I've ever seen someone hooked on that, mainly do to me being by the border and if someone took enough to actually have a small addiction gonig they could get enough to wean themselves off.

Codeine and Vicodin withdrawels last about 3 days. Morphine maybe a week, Heroin two weeks, but a severe addiction could take up to a year to fully be over. The sleepless nights would last but the actual pain from not having it goes away in less than a month.

I can get Valium easier than Vicodin here and Valium is way more addictive and has way more side effects.

I've had almost every Opiate on the planet at least once except for Heroin, and not one of them ever made it so I was sleepy. They actually keep me up longer.

I haven't had bad side effects to any of them and I'm deathly allergic to anti inflammitorys, meaning if Tylenol isn't strong enough, I'm screwed. And when Tylenol is strong enough I rarely take one because that's just not enough pain for me to whine about it.

Also I generally take an Opiate down with Mountain Dew, the Caffeine and Acidic properties make it intensify the effects of Opiates.

The only thing I can take for my BAD Migraines, is Dilauded and Morphine, nothing else works.

I don't drink, I smoke cigarettes, I have smoked pot but not in years, and the reason I did it was because I was told not too (Tell a 5 year old not to push a button, see if they listen....) I don't do hallucinogens, I do enjoy Opiates because they allow me to function normally and take away the pain.

[Moira]

In general, I'd concede that what you say is pretty accurate. Benzos are rated as highly addictive, however it is a personal thing and I find it not too difficult at all to come off them when I have taken them for a while, ie I get a couple of sleepless nights and that's more or less it. There again, I never had a problem stopping smoking, yet some people really struggle.

While codeine withdrawal isn't as bad as heroin or morphine or methadone, it is not pleasant, and it isn't true to say you can easily get more. If that's the kind of codeine you're taking then I suppose addiction/withdrawal isn't a huge issue. I'm talking about the hydrocodone type drugs, which are just codeine, but tweaked in a way to make them much more potent, and potentially much more addictive.

Methadone/heroin/morphine etc are usually controlled when taken regularly. Either they have to be bought on the black market or they're prescribed in a very controlled way. The trouble with dhc is that you can be given a large amount, meant to last a month, use the lot in a fortnight and then go through hell before you can obtain any more! In that way withdrawal can be worse than with a stronger opiate, simply because the potential for abuse is so much greater. The potency of dhc is gradually sinking in as far as the medical profession is concerned, and dhc is now a Class B drug and more tightly controlled, ie every pill has to be accounted for and no more than a month's supply can be given at any one time. Possession is not in itself an offence, but selling is.

Yes, dhc is sometimes used as a replacement for morphine etc to wean people off because it is a short acting drug and the withdrawal symptoms do generally clear up after about 5 days. However heroin, methadone and morphine are roughly as long lasting, but within a fortnight you'd be over the main symptoms.

Withdrawal happens because opiates suppress production of noradrenaline, so the body goes into overdrive producing it when you take the drug. Then when you stop suddenly, it has to compensate and this takes a few days. That's the unpleasant (but not dangerous) "cold turkey". Catapres (clonidine) can help because it suppresses noradrenaline and addicts are sometimes offered patches which release the substance gradually. Clonidine is a beta blocker.

There's a secondary withdrawal which happens because opiates are a much more efficient producer of endorphins than the body's natural mechanism, so the body's production of this is reduced drastically when taking the drug. Endorphin is what makes us feel pleasure out of things in life, and when this is not being produced in sufficient quantities, it's as if the body's "pleasure thermostat" has been turned down and the result is depression and the inability to find pleasure in the normal everyday events in life.

Your body does adjust, but particularly after long term opiate use, this can take months and anti depressants are often used as a short term aid.

[gore]

In general, I'd concede that what you say is pretty accurate. Benzos are rated as highly addictive, however it is a personal thing and I find it not too difficult at all to come off them when I have taken them for a while, ie I get a couple of sleepless nights and that's more or less it. There again, I never had a problem stopping smoking, yet some people really struggle.

I smoke and I coldn't stop cold Turkey... Well I could but I'd be in jail for multiple violent crimes heh.

While codeine withdrawal isn't as bad as heroin or morphine or methadone, it is not pleasant, and it isn't true to say you can easily get more. If that's the kind of codeine you're taking then I suppose addiction/withdrawal isn't a huge issue. I'm talking about the hydrocodone type drugs, which are just codeine, but tweaked in a way to make them much more potent, and potentially much more addictive.

Codeine is easy to get for me because of how close I am to Canada, and even the Customs guys aren't all strict on bringing a little back as long as it's within reason. I usually grab a bottle or 2 while I'm there and the tabs are only 8 MGs which is what I meant on it being hard to get hooked on.

8 MGs just is NOT a lot of it. However, extraction is easy, to make it strong enough for a mild to moderate head ache, a small tooth ache, or restroom problems.

Codeine works well for a couple of different things because 10% of it is turned into Morphine when it's processed in your body. I'm probably going to spell this wrong but Codeine turns into Morphine the same way Heroin does, methylization.

Codeine today on the market is no longer taken right from the Opium, but a reverse process of what I stated above where it turns into Morphine, except, as pointed out, reversed, to turn Morphine into Codeine.

Methadone/heroin/morphine etc are usually controlled when taken regularly. Either they have to be bought on the black market or they're prescribed in a very controlled way.

VERY hard to get legally. I've heard of elderly people with Cancer suffering to hell because their Dr wouldn't give them anything stronger than Percocet.... Which, for someone like me, would barely knock out a head ache.

When I was a younger child, nothing worked on me. My Mom wasn't a drug user, and still, when I was born, I seemed to have some natural tolerance to meds. I can drive on Dilauded (Hydromorphone Chloride, slightly more potent than Morphine) and when I was 5 or so years old two extra strength Tylenol wouldn't even take away a head ache for me.

Yes, dhc is sometimes used as a replacement for morphine etc to wean people off because it is a short acting drug and the withdrawal symptoms do generally clear up after about 5 days. However heroin, methadone and morphine are roughly as long lasting, but within a fortnight you'd be over the main symptoms.

The main ones the first two nights are like a small taste of hell. Believe me.

Withdrawal happens because opiates suppress production of noradrenaline, so the body goes into overdrive producing it when you take the drug. Then when you stop suddenly, it has to compensate and this takes a few days. That's the unpleasant (but not dangerous) "cold turkey".

It's your bodies natural reaction to an Opiate basically. It's not the same as addiction to booze, which a lot of people seem to underestimate. People will drink a lot yet don't realise alcohol is no less addictive than an Opiate.

There's a secondary withdrawal which happens because opiates are a much more efficient producer of endorphins than the body's natural mechanism, so the body's production of this is reduced drastically when taking the drug. Endorphin is what makes us feel pleasure out of things in life, and when this is not being produced in sufficient quantities, it's as if the body's "pleasure thermostat" has been turned down and the result is depression and the inability to find pleasure in the normal everyday events in life.

Your body does adjust, but particularly after long term opiate use, this can take months and anti depressants are often used as a short term aid.

I'm basically against any anti-depressent other than Opiates. I feel them to be more dangerous than any perscription pain killer.

I believe that you pointed out that you enjoyed the feeling of them, which means you and I both understand the statement "Hydrocodone is a valid anti-depressent".

Actually all Opiates are. Before Opiates were used for pain, they were actually used for diarhea. Also they were put in wine at funerals to take the grief away as Opiates aree the only substance on the planet that actually kill both physical and emotional pain.

It's sort of sad how people only allow them to be used for one of those.

Heh, want a real good chuckle? When my Grandma died, my aunt was given Valium from the Dr who prescribed my Grandma Vioxx, which gave Her Heart Attacks and killed Her.

Valium can cause depression itself and suicidal thoughts. Now why would someone get it for depression? Heh, that should give you a good laugh.

I Honestly don't understand how any person on the planet can have a problem with an Opiate. They take care of Pain, Depression, restroom problems, they make you feel happy, and they are a good cough supressent.

Also Opium itself can be rubbed on skin to heal rashes... All these medical uses yet it's harder to get than a winning lotto ticket.

The only down side to Opiates is addiction which I don't believe to be a valid reason for their Nazi like controlled state. Nicotine is far more addictive than Heroin, and Caffeine is about as addictive as Codeine, and like I said about Alcohol... All those are perfectly legal though.... So obviously addiction can't be the only reason. Maybe people really don't want anyone to feel good.

[nihil]

Hmmmm, I have probably said all this before but:

1. What is the logic of worrying about addiction to medication in people who are terminally ill?.............you know it isn't medication addiction that is going to kill them

2. In the case of people with chronic pain, how do you decide where the line between addiction to pharmaceuticals and pain aversion lies?...............either cure them, or give them the meds?

Interesting about "bathroom problems" a.k.a. "Montezuma's Revenge" The Dr. Collis Brown's medication that Moira and I were discussing is a mixture of Morphine Sulphate and Kaolin (china clay) and is an excellent remedy.

You don't mention it, but codeine is also an excellent cough suppressant............well it worked for me, and as I had just broken a couple of ribs at the time, you can imagine why I am very supportive of the substance

[gore]

Actually I did mention Codeine as a cough supressent

Also isn't it true in the UK Morphine in small doses is over the counter? I know in Peru it is, but I heard the UK has small doses of it right over the counter.

[mohaughn]

And for the heads up, yes, you'd die from Aceteminophen LONG before Codeine. Generally 800 MGs is the LD50 of Codeine, and for Hydrocodone, the ingrediant in Vicodin, Lortab, and others, it's... A lot.

It takes 4 full bottles of Vicodin for there to be enough Hydrocodone to kill a premature born 2 pound Baby. Yet just one bottle worth has enough of the Tylenol in it to kill a full grown man.

Gonna call bullshit on that one.. The lethal dose of hydrocodone is roughly 40mg. Acetaminophen is toxic at 7.5 - 10g. Notice the difference between milligrams and grams. Vicodin has between 5-10mg of hydrocodone in them. So unless each bottle only has 2 pills you would die well before you started that second bottle.

* Vicodin: 500mg acetaminophen / 5mg hydrocodone
* Vicodin ES: 750mg acetaminophen / 7.5mg hydrocodone
* Vicodin HP: 10mg hydrocodone / 660mg acetaminophen

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dai...att-6-vol1.pdf Page 13 gives the lethal dosage as required by the FDA to be printed on bottle labels.

So taking 8 vicodin would give you 4grams of acetaminophen and 40mg of hydrocodone, you'd go into respiratory distress. Taking 4 vicodin HP would give you 40mg of hydrocodone and 2.6grams of acetaminophen. Again, respiratory distress is what would kill you.

Here are some quotes-

"In adults, hepatic toxicity has rarely been reported with acute overdoses of less than 10 grams, or fatalities with less than 15 grams."

"The toxic dose for adults for acetaminophen is 10 g."

So there is no way in hell a newborn could handle 4 bottles of Vicodin. Some of the totally off the wall "facts" that have been posted in this thread make the entire thread worthless.

[gore]

Gonna call bullshit on that one.. The lethal dose of hydrocodone is roughly 40mg.

No disrespect meant, but I've taken over 120 MGs in a 12 hour period and I'm not dead. Unless you dropped a zero and meant 400, which is closer to the actal LD50 (375MGs)

Acetaminophen is toxic at 7.5 - 10g. Notice the difference between milligrams and grams.

Yea, I know. give or take it's 10,000 MGs and it's a slow painful death that isn't anywhere near instant, you'd lay there dying as your body shut down for close to a week.

[QUOTE]
So taking 8 vicodin would give you 4grams of acetaminophen and 40mg of hydrocodone, you'd go into respiratory distress. Taking 4 vicodin HP would give you 40mg of hydrocodone and 2.6grams of acetaminophen. Again, respiratory distress is what would kill you.[QUOTE]

Again, I've taken way more than that at once. Not because I was tyring to die or get high, but a Migraine is some of the most severe pain you can live through, I took 9 Vicodin, at once.

So there is no way in hell a newborn could handle 4 bottles of Vicodin. Some of the totally off the wall "facts" that have been posted in this thread make the entire thread worthless.

I said the amount of Hydrocodone in it, and also said the Tylenol / Paracetemol / Acetaminophen would kill long before the Hydrocodone did.

Also note the LD50 which is as I pointed out around 375 MGs, isn't usually done as a full on dose, most of the time when you read into an LD50 it's "per 2kilos of weight on the body" so the 40 MGs you found, was most likely per 2 pounds of human weight. Which would make sence with the two pound premature I brought up.

"For Hydrocodone bitartrate: Oral rat LD50: 375 mg/kg, investigated as a reproductive effector. ("Humans are probably much more sensitive." -- Gosselin, Smith, Hodge, "Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products" 5th Edition, 1984, p. II-239.) "

375 MGs per KG... I also noted the last part where humans are more sensitive "probably", but I don't think I've ever seen 375 MGs of it pure. Again, as I said, OD on Hydrocodone would be DAMN hard.

http://bulkpharm.mallinckrodt.com/_a...msds/CODBS.htm

[mohaughn]

No disrespect meant, but I've taken over 120 MGs in a 12 hour period and I'm not dead. Unless you dropped a zero and meant 400, which is closer to the actal LD50 (375MGs)

I wasn't given the ld50. I was giving the FDA overdose label information. 8 tabs of Levophed is considered enough to be considered a toxic dose. I said lethal, I meant toxic. Anyways I was only countering your assertion that a newborn could take 4 bottles of vicodin. I would also not consider the drug tolerance of somebody who admits to taking large quantities, more than any doctor would prescribe, as being the normal or expected results for the vast majority of the population. You would not be in the 50% that would die in an ld50 test. So your drug tolerance can't be used to talk about the safety of any drug.

I know people who deal with weekly migraines and do it without medicine. So you won't get any sympathy from me because your doctor won't prescribe you enough vicodin so that you can eat 8 at once and still have a stash left over.

[gore]

No offense but there isn't a human being on this planet that could deal with a full on Migraine without either a drug or a gun. I've shattered my ankle, the feeling of a bone shattering inside your body is nothing compared to an actual Migraine.

I know, I did the bone breaking without anything for pain, including the therapy I had to do on it. It hurt like hell, but a Migraine, an actual Migraine, not a bad head ache that makes you lay down, but one that makes you vomit and gives you tunnel vision and drops you on your knees, is the most severe pain I've ever experienced.

The onyl thing that has ever come close are the stomache pains from anti-inflammitory meds. I'm deathly allergic to them and need a trip the the ER if I injest them.

And the way the Drs in America are about handing those out instead of narcotics, well, you get the idea, let's just say the ER staff knows me by name and I know my way around the place well.

Also, I'm not talking about tolerance, tolerance builds up over time. It also goes away with time. If someone is addicted to Heroin for a few years and then stops using it for a few months they no longer have a tolerance they would have before that.

And within one year or so if they needed surgery and were given a low dose Opiate, they'd have the same relief as someone who has only had it medically.

I admit to taking a large quantity because I don't think any human being has the right to down right judge any other human being on what they do. I was born as I said with what I guess would be a natural tolerance.

The first time I'd ever taken a pain killer that was narcotic, I hadn't ever had a drug in my system other than alcohol, Tylenol, Aspirin, and Ibuprofin. The latter two I'm allergic to, yet still I needed a higher than normal dose.

When I first screwed up my knee and I was in the ER they had to give me a larger dose of Dilauded which is more potent than Morphine because even though as I said, I don't abuse things the way people seem to think I do, just because I admit to what I do and have to do, they had to double the dose, so that doesn't make me an addict, a criminal, nor does it make me a bad person.

A friend of mine would be a good example. She's about 105 pounds soaking wet, isn't an addict, yet when she went into surgery, she was completely immune to Vicodin and had to be given Morphine.

She hadn't had it before yet was for some reason not having any reaction to it.

My point is, tolerance isn't always because of use.

Another thing, this may not be how you meant it, but I feel that you were calling me out as an addict or a recreational user with that stash comment.

again, that may or may not be how it was meant, but I don't get any high off Opiates. I just don't. They DO help me concentrate and in some countrys are used for ADD and depression, I think Nihil can back me up as I THINK it was him who told me about it, however I dno't get tired, or dizzy, or a high, or stoned off of them.

Which kind of sucks in a way, I mean if they made me feel high at least there would be a justified reason for the way I get treated with my openess.

When I had to go to the ER not to long ago for my back (Had no idea what was wrong other than I could barely walk and had watched the Sun come up two days in a row without sleeping the night before) they checked me out and told me I had really screwed up a muscle near my Spine.

I was given Dilauded again, and as usual, after a huge dose of it (they gave me the entire vile) I could have driven home. I don't get high off them like some people seem to do. I really don't. Even the Dr and Nurse were kind of shocked that afterwards I could stand and walk on my own.

Aso note the other needle they stuck in me was full of Valium. Valium instensifies Opiates.

The Nurse was shocked I could not only walk on my own but that I had no appearence of being tired or even sleepy, and this is after 2 nights in a row with no sleep.

Now you may bring up tolerance again saying it was the reaosn I could do that, but Dilauded is WAY higher up the scale of Narcotics than Vicodin is. It would be damned hard to have a tolerance like that with Dilauded when the only thing taken is Vicodin, which I will also point out, before Monday, I had none of.

I've had barely any this whole summer and it's almost Winter. When I made this post for example, I didn't have any. I've had some, but I sure as hell have not had a constant supply.

Appologies if that wasn't meant as an attack on my character, but it has happened before quite a bit.

I just really don't like people saying I have some huge tolerance becuse of USE of them or ABUSE when I know damn well I haven't, and I know you've been here long enough to know that if I did, I'd sure as hell admit to it.

This may come as a shock, but people who abuse Pain Killers, actually sometimes get on my nerves. The reason is because people like that are the reason people like me, and others, have to suffer when we are in pain, because Drs think everyone under the age of 40 is just trying to get high.

You wanna know what drug DOES give me a high? Robaxin. Also, so does Soma. The Valium I was given does make me sort of stoned, but I wouldn't call it some big high, the dose I was given was barely enough to relax the muscle, but I've had it in higher doses where I was almost drooling on myself, and I'm not talknig about a huge dose that most people would die from either, I'm talking about a 10MG tablet.

I love the irony. They won't give me Narcotics because they think I'm abusing them yet they have no problem handing me one of the few things that actually gets me stoned....

I don't really understand why I seem to have a tolerance the way I do. When I drink which is very rarely, it takes a LOT of Cognac before I'm even buzzed let alone drunk.

My Mom isn't a drunk, hell, two beers and She's tipsy, and when She had surgery, 1 Vicodin and She was out. So it sure as hell isn't from Her. I just seem to have a very odd tolerance to everything.

I'm not sure if the same tolerance is there for illegal drugs, I wouldn't be able to tell, I haven't done very many. I have smoked pot, mainly because I was told not too, and well, when you tell someone not to do something like that, they are going to wonder why until they try it for themselves to see, and yea, it took quite a bit before I felt anything.

Anything else I'm not sure, I won't do certain drugs because my own research has led me to believe they are just to risky.

For smoking cigarettes, from what I understand when you first start smoking people get a nicotine buzz for the first few months, I got a small Nicotine buzz I'd say maybe the first two weeks because I was barely smoking at first.

I really do just seem to have a huge tolerance. I'm not asking for sympathy, I'm asking to not be treated like an addict doing things just to get a high, I'm not and I don't.

the only thing that gives me a huge buzz is the Nitrouse my dentist has and that lasts for about 20 seconds.

In other words, don't assume that just because I admit to taking Hydrocodone that I get some high off it or that I use it for something it isn't made to do in the first place. I don't.