Why is it so hard to get some prescription drugs in the needed quantities?

[Moira]

Good grief, this thread has grown since I last saw it

People can easily raise their tolerance to take LD50 doses and hardly feel them. The danger lies in coming off the stuff for a while, not realising your tolerance drops swiftly, and OD'ing on the same dose you'd hardly have felt a week ago.

True, 8mg of codeine phos is hardly (well not at all) felt. Dihydrocodeine isn't codeine phosphate, it's rather like the UK equivalent of vicodin, but there isn't the tylenol/paracetamol/acetamorphin (sp) content as a "filler". Dihydrocodeine is pure dihydrocodeine tartrate, ie hydrodocone to all intents and purposes. We can buy tablets that contain 8mg codeine phos or even 8mg dihydrocodeine OTC here, but they all contain substantial doses of paracetamol. The reason dihydrocodeine can become such a problem is that there is nothing to stop you taking large amounts - if it had some paracetamol (tylenol) in, then there'd be a natural barrier to overdoing it, ie you wouldn't want to risk an overdose. Yes, you can attempt to get rid of the tylenol content in tablets that contain both substances, but you're rather playing with fire - not something I'd try because I would never be certain it had worked. I don't have the equipment to do gas chromatography / mass spectrometry tests.

gore, tricyclic antidepressants have actually worked very well for me on the occasions I've needed them. And I've experienced those "two days of hell" believe me. I have to take painkillers for rheumatoid arthritis, and after a flare up subsides, I have on occasion just stopped dihydrocodeine more or less stone dead - and it's not funny.

LD50 for dihydrocodeine is 500 mg (the stuff is gauged in higher measurements than vidocin, ie one tablet contains 30mg), though some people would put that nearer 400 mg. Like I said though, tolerance can build to ridiculously high levels, as it can with benzos - which is why I try to take as little as possible, as it only wastes the precious stuff

As I said all along, the biggest problem with opiate use is wanting more. I find it incredibly addictive, whereas I don't think whatever circumstances I found myself in, I would ever become an alcoholic. I just don't like hangovers.

In the UK we used to be able to buy codeine cough linctus, and also Dr Collis Brown, but nowadays that's been stopped. The cough medicine you can get OTC contains pseudo codeine (ie stuff that isn't actually codeine at all, and is proportionately useless). Codeine linctus actually worked but you'd need a script for it now.

Yes, it's shocking how people in real need often find themselves almost criminalized for wanting dihydrocodeine or other strong pain medication. I don't think that addiction is the most important consideration in either termanilly ill patients or anyone in chronic/severe pain. Fortunately, I have a doctor who agrees with me. He's told me that he hates to hear his receptionists tell anyone ringing in for a repeat prescription, that their medication "isn't due". His view is, if they've rung up to request it, then they need it, and whether or not it's due doesn't come into it.

Interesting to see the mention of codeine to cure a headache. A frequent side effect of codeine in large doses is a "rebound headache" and I've experienced on quite a number of occasions a migraine as a result of taking dihydrocodeine for joint pain.

Edit I will upload an interesting video by Penn and Teller, called Bullshit - The War on Drugs. It does last 29 minutes but is well worth watching. I'll post the link when I have it, as it will take some time to upload.

[mohaughn]

No where in my post did I say anything about you having a high tolerance because of use, or did I call you an addict. Although I know what Freud would say about your comment back to me. The only thing I assumed is that if you can take 8 vicodins without any negative effects you have a high tolerance. Considerably higher than the vast majority of the population. You also have talked about taking a large variety of drugs

And again a great friend of mine lives with chronic migraines and manages them through visualization techniques. When he hit the point that he was taking 6 vicodins a day his headache specialist advised against continuing the use of vicodin because of the negative aspects of opium addiction. No doctor, pain specialist, or migraine specialist would ever suggest that a patient take 8 vicodins at once. It may be unfortunate that the current drugs available don't work for you, but just because of your drug tolerance does not mean that our medical system is fundamentally flawed. I would think better sense would prevail and say, "hey, these things aren't working for me" before anybody would take 8 vicodins. But that is just me.


As for other people assuming your have a drug problem. That may have a lot to do with your previous profile. As I'm fairly certain it said something about smoking weed. Or the pictures on your website of your holding up pills and smiling like a drugged fool, or maybe comments about taking several hits of acid and wanting a McDonalds pill burger.. Just a thought.

[brokencrow]

The pain med issue is not so simple.

I was a hospice volunteer for 10 years. Saw a lot of people die, week in and week out. Some people loved what we did, some considered us pill pushers. Frankly, there is a grain of truth to both. I remember when Jim And Dave brought Kim to the inpatient unit. She had ovarian cancer. The nurse and I went in to her room to administer some morph, she was squirming up and down in bed with pain. She kept saying, "no, don't do this, don't do this." I felt so bad, I knew what she wanted. She wanted to die with a clear mind. She was into the Bardo (see "The Tibetan Book of the Dead"). She didn't want the drugs. On the other hand, had a neighbor, and subsequent friend, Bill who died of the AIDS. He was on pain meds and got very tired of them. He didn't like the way they made him feel. But he needed them regularly, and he complained of being treated like a pariah at the doc's office for that. The sad fact is when we become sick in our society, our wishes are often dishonored and control of our lives are ceded to people who have no idea of what we go through. To me, it's an issue of care. I think one should have a right to control one's treatment.

One needs to look at the history of drugs, particularly in the United States, to get a feel for the issue of drug abuse. The golden age of drug abuse, contrary to popular belief, was NOT the 1960's and 1970's. It was the 1870's-1890's. Civil war doctors dispensed tens of millions of opium pills to wounded vets. By the 1870's, opium dens were popping up all over, even in small midwestern towns (I know, I grew up in one and learned its history). Opium and cocaine were widely available and used. Prominent citizens, like Thomas Alva Edison, used the stuff. All that changed in 1914 with the Harrison Act. Alcohol bounced back from Prohibition, drugs never did. An ethos came into being that folks didn't know what was best for them (often true!) and that anything in pill form needed regulating. Today, this is even being extended to vitamins (soon to be reg'd).

Having said all that, there's parts of the US where scripts for pain meds are freely dispensed (eastern Kentucky). The sad fact is, I can easily score pain meds with no script, but going to an MD for them would be a different story. I keep wondering how the drug companies & wholesalers reconcile their books with all the pills going to the street. Must be big money, because the Feds don't seem to look their way.

All the best to you, Gore. Frankly, I think you deserve medicinal relief from your pain.

[gore]

The pain med issue is not so simple.

I was a hospice volunteer for 10 years. Saw a lot of people die, week in and week out. Some people loved what we did, some considered us pill pushers. Frankly, there is a grain of truth to both. I remember when Jim And Dave brought Kim to the inpatient unit. She had ovarian cancer. The nurse and I went in to her room to administer some morph, she was squirming up and down in bed with pain. She kept saying, "no, don't do this, don't do this." I felt so bad, I knew what she wanted. She wanted to die with a clear mind. She was into the Bardo (see "The Tibetan Book of the Dead"). She didn't want the drugs. On the other hand, had a neighbor, and subsequent friend, Bill who died of the AIDS. He was on pain meds and got very tired of them. He didn't like the way they made him feel. But he needed them regularly, and he complained of being treated like a pariah at the doc's office for that. The sad fact is when we become sick in our society, our wishes are often dishonored and control of our lives are ceded to people who have no idea of what we go through. To me, it's an issue of care. I think one should have a right to control one's treatment.

One needs to look at the history of drugs, particularly in the United States, to get a feel for the issue of drug abuse. The golden age of drug abuse, contrary to popular belief, was NOT the 1960's and 1970's. It was the 1870's-1890's. Civil war doctors dispensed tens of millions of opium pills to wounded vets. By the 1870's, opium dens were popping up all over, even in small midwestern towns (I know, I grew up in one and learned its history). Opium and cocaine were widely available and used. Prominent citizens, like Thomas Alva Edison, used the stuff. All that changed in 1914 with the Harrison Act. Alcohol bounced back from Prohibition, drugs never did. An ethos came into being that folks didn't know what was best for them (often true!) and that anything in pill form needed regulating. Today, this is even being extended to vitamins (soon to be reg'd).

Having said all that, there's parts of the US where scripts for pain meds are freely dispensed (eastern Kentucky). The sad fact is, I can easily score pain meds with no script, but going to an MD for them would be a different story. I keep wondering how the drug companies & wholesalers reconcile their books with all the pills going to the street. Must be big money, because the Feds don't seem to look their way.

All the best to you, Gore. Frankly, I think you deserve medicinal relief from your pain.

Not going to make another huge post because I have some things to do here I need to get done, but yes, you hit it right on the head. The 60s and 70s had nothing on the 1890s where half of congress were Morphine addicts.

Hell, even the pot back then was stronger. People say pot today isn't the same as it was in the 60s and 70s so that Parents can be hipocrits and tell their kids not to do it, which is also half assed truth.

The strongest pot the US had ever seen was in the 1930s. Also, the stronger the pot, the safer for your body it is. If smoking it is a health risk, then stronegr stuff wouldn't need to be smoked for the desired effect.

Also, smoking Opium won't ever cause cancer. I bet someone is going to love that comment, but it's true. Opium isn't burned, it's heated, therefore, there isn't any smoke, and therefore, no risk for cancer.

Anyway, I'll check back in a while. And thanks.

[brokencrow]

...yow, I don't know how weed can get much stronger than some good 'dro.