The Problem of Evil

[gothic_type]

Our faith also allows for 'evil occurrances' - like 4 hurricanes hitting and devastating parts of florida, or incurable diseases that ravish one's loved ones. It does so by the existance of the 'Evil one' - Satan.

But I thought that God was all powerful!

I don't need to analyse anything, I just know that I don't believe in God, simply because of the fact that I don't believe and there's nothing else to it.

ac

[|3lack|ce]

You are indeed entitled to your beliefs and the expressions thereof, even if it *did* take you 2 years and 6 months to finally air them for the world to see...

[Godsrock37]

So I definitely missed out on a lot of this thread, tears, its a good one, and I've had a lot of fun reading it. I took some notes so i could give back some reactions to some comments. I found some funny, some confusing, and some really informative. So I guess I'll just hit one at a time down the list.

Tigershark:

I understand that they _believe_ that the first three are not assumptions which makes it impossible for them to "step back" and consider the issue in a logical fashion and then proceed to any conclusion that does not fit their assumptions. That's the problem. If you are theistic then you accept your assumptions as fact. From that point onwards your mind is focused on proving the premise that your supreme being exists. That's bad science and bad philosophy

First off, as many of you could either guess or already know from my previous posts, im one of those that believes the first three arent assumptions. But that in no way makes me incapable of stepping back and considering it logically. Some of the greatest minds of all time were Christians who believed those three ideas and thought very logically (e.g. C. S. Lewis, extremely logical, even if you dont believe him, which in some cases i dont, check out Mere Christianity, explains the Christian faith pretty well, and he does just that, steps back and analyzes the problem). I do accept the assumption as fact, but based on evidence I've seen in my own life, not just because i need an emotional crutch. Indeed, i find myself having the opposite problem as a Christian, as all Christians do, being able to give yourself completely to that idea and fully trusting. Jesus says if you doubt but genuinely want to seek out truth He'll give it to you, seems pretty straight forward there, no crap, straight to the point, just ask Him and legitimately seek.

rcgreen:

You and I may take it for granted that evil exists, but notice my last quote,
in which the person says "whatever is is right". In fact, I bet there are lots
of people who deny the existence of "evil" as we define it. They would
say "this is reality, deal with it", essentially meaning that there is
nothing fundamentally wrong with the universe, or human nature,
and that those who see "evil" in the world are naive whiners and losers.

You admit the existence of evil. Just posing a question here, do you believe in universal/absolute evil, or like in later posts do you believe its relative? Why? If its universal/absolute then who defines it and how? How do we deal with each other if its relative, and how does judicial systems work? Why do we feel wronged when someone "hurts" us? If its common sense as others have proposed, and dealing with consequences of actions, who's to determine what those consequences are, and why there should be consequences, and whats "common" sense.

AngelicKnight

Well, I am a christian, but this question does not "make me squirm". Like any other good question, it's worth a good consideration and analysis. In a nutshell, I believe this:

1) The problem is that evil is viewed as a creative thing, a "something". However, evil from the theological perspective is a lack of something, a sort of moral black hole if you will. As God is perfect, righteous, and holy -- then evil is the absence of that. So did God create an absence of Himself? That very question makes no sense. He is, and evil is what occurs when He is kept out of the picture.

2) Since we have free will, we can choose God, or not choose Him. We can choose good (God) or evil (absence of God).

So again, evil is the absence of God, more or less. God didn't create evil, as obviously He didn't create the absence of Himself.

I think I'd generally agree. It seems like you and I line up on just about everything cool stuff man. Oh, by the way, hell was a hodge podge of ideas that included the one you were talking about. that actually wasn't so much hell as, like you said, Jesus' metaphor for it, in terms that the people would understand, and is referenced when ever he says "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" and that idea was combined with other ideas presented in the NT to create hell (i believe a Roman concept). At least thats what i was taught from my older bro and i think one of my pastors. I was pretty impressed when you said that, props.

Sick Dwarf

They don't say you can do anything you want because of what the other religions tell you, they say you can do anything you want, as long as you are willing to accept responsibility for your actions. This is, assuming one wants to call himself a Satanist to begin with. They don't force anything on anyone.

I think Christianity largely agrees here. God presents an invitation, which can be rejected. We're all in sin by nature, God gave us a way out, we just have to take it. Thats the core of Christianity. You'll have to take responsibility for your actions, no matter what, but throught Christ we find someone who already took responsibility for us. So it's a choice, would you like to pay for choosing to be without God (sin) or would you like to let the scapegoat do it for you. let me know if this analogy is off.

DonkeyPunch

There is nothing wrong with loving yourself and doing things that please you, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

I've always been taught the line is this.
God first
Others second
Myself Last
when ever i get that out of order i find myself losing out anyway, i find life a lot more fulfilling that way, and it seems like thats the way we were made to be, as hard it is. (the reason it is hard comes back to the fact that we are born apart from God, and therefore the true way of living, and we struggle to get back to that)


gothic_type

I don't need to analyse anything, I just know that I don't believe in God, simply because of the fact that I don't believe and there's nothing else to it.

huh, is it just me or don't we here that a lot from Christians. I get criticized for that even though i dont believe that, and i know a lot of Christians who do believe that way and catch a lot of heat for it. and just fyi im not criticizing i just found the statement interesting. Kind of a reversal of roles. I guess anybody can make that statement, and have the right to i guess.


i think angelic knight took care of the whole evil thing pretty well for me, thats basically where i stand, and i didnt see any one present any logic that refuted it. One idea that usually comes alongside this one is pain. any thoughts or ideas there? just to be clear i define evil as the "anti-God" that angelic knight talked about or things that are "wrong" and go against God. pain i would define as things that are uncomfortable for us. Jesus dealt with pain so it can't be evil. any thoughts, im interested to see your views.

and ya, all of my ideas come from a Christian view point so a lot of it i present as fact but you are all entitled to your opinion and can disagree, thats assumed, and goes without saying

[Egaladeist]

The answer is simple...there is no such thing as evil.

Evil does not exist.

In respect to pain...pain assists us in knowing that something is wrong with us...if we didn't experience pain we would would not live beyond our toddler years...it is a built-in warning system that is meant to prevent further injury. Therefore...pain is not evil, it is good.

In respect to wrong deeds...evil is imbalance...or more precisely, not being in a right way with god/nature/etc...having our priorities as individuals and as a society out of balance...
proper balance is to love living things
be complacent toward things not alive
and to hate/abhor one's own ignorance/not knowing
evil comes into being...is born...brought into existence when our priorities are not in the proper order...
evil is not a thing unto itself...it is rather a result...

therefore all things are good in their essence... in their beginning/creation...but used in any manner outside the proper priority they can bring forth misfortune

In respect to natural phenomenon...you cannot blame god/nature if we choose to build homes on fault lines or in tornado alleys...that is just our own stupidity...

so...in conclusion...good exists...evil does not, except as a result of not have our priorities aright...it is the effect of a cause...and cannot come into existence in any other way...

as for god...there is no doubt in my mind that god exists...however, having said that...

it doesn't matter in the least if you believe in god

the ONLY thing that really matters

is if god believes in you.

[Evil Moo]

I think Christianity largely agrees here. God presents an invitation, which can be rejected. We're all in sin by nature, God gave us a way out, we just have to take it. Thats the core of Christianity. You'll have to take responsibility for your actions, no matter what, but throught Christ we find someone who already took responsibility for us. So it's a choice, would you like to pay for choosing to be without God (sin) or would you like to let the scapegoat do it for you. let me know if this analogy is off.

Personally, I could never accept the concept of original sin. I was born/raised Catholic, served on the alter for 2 years, and even confirmed. A great deal of the Catholic church never made sense to me. The whole religion seems to be nothing other than accepting your worthlessness and incapability and subjugating yourself to the whim of someone else.

My rejection of religion is a concious logical choice, not simply because I find the evidence for it inconclusive, but the entire philosophy behind just about all of them are abhorent. The only moral benefits of these religions are self-evident of any society already. Civilizations long before the advent of monothiesm had morals of, Murder, Theft, and Lying to be wrong. This is because societal morals are utilitarian.

Monothiesm leaves God devoid of any accountability or responsibility. If I were able to prevent some loss of life or injustice of another, I would be expected to aid it especially if it took no more than a simple whim to save. If I were to condemn everyone to eternal damnation and suffering simply for disagreeing with me even if they had harmed no one, I would be Malevolence incarnate. God is infalible to every and all such crimes.

If I, a lowly mortal can fathom this, how can a supreme being not? I never even asked to be born. How cruel is it to subjugate someone to this kind of rigor and test without consent to satiate one's own boredom? Better yet, if I opt out and kill myself, I'm only asurring my suffering. This is not kind, holy, or even fair if you ask me.

To me, the only monothiestic religions that make sense are Jewish people, and Doomsday Chrisitans. Judaism is steeped in crazy superstition that defy logic, and Doomsday Christians just seem looney--but at least both of them are consistent in their philosophies and practices. They're beyond logic or reason, which is ultimately the root of religion. Anything else is simply a perversion and gives us long debates like this one.

[rcgreen]

If I, a lowly mortal can fathom this, how can a supreme being not? I never even asked to be born. How cruel is it to subjugate someone to this kind of rigor and test without consent to satiate one's own boredom? Better yet, if I opt out and kill myself, I'm only asurring my suffering. This is not kind, holy, or even fair if you ask me.

That's a good way of stating the original problem. Why, if God is good, does
he do things that seem, from our point of view, to be selfish, vindictive,
indifferent, etc?
But, beyond that, how does any other philosophy adequately explain the existence
of evil? I am defining evil not just as something unpleasant or tragic like the
weather or disease, but the kind of malevolence that causes rape, child murder
war and genocide. Are these merely natural phenomena or are they something
more sinister?
If we just evolved naturally, doesn't it stand to reason that we could have just as
easily evolved into peaceful beings living a life of paradise, everyone properly
fed clothed and housed, and enjoying our favorite pursuits? Why all the street crime?
There are two types of people answering this question, those who see the world
as it is and say to themselves "How do I adapt myself to this environment in
order to prosper under these circumstances?" And there are those who look
at the world and grieve because they see how much lost potential there is
because of ignorance stupidity and malice.

Again I say, whatever philosophy or point of view you subscribe to, explaining
the existence of evil is not easy, and it doesn't constitute an airtight case
for atheism. If there is no God or Devil, why is there still, evidently, a sort
of war going on between so-called good and so-called evil?

[Egaladeist]

RC...you seem to be getting stuck on the image of god being a benevolent father figure...a human imposed concept...to create god in our image...

god is neither benevolent nor concerned with our well-being...god is no more concerned with us than with the well-being of seals or the buffalo...

the personification of god is to make god like us...god is not like us.

[Blunted One]

...Bush is evil

[gothic_type]

Personally, I could never accept the concept of original sin. I was born/raised Catholic, served on the alter for 2 years, and even confirmed. A great deal of the Catholic church never made sense to me.

That's more or less the reason I stopped going to mass. Suddenly I thought to myself, what's the point of all these rituals - surely they can't serve any real purpose. Then I realised after a while that I didn't believe. Seemed a bit hypocritical to continue pretending that I was a Catholic, so I stopped.

I don't believe in evil. My point of view is that evil is essentially ruled by moral values. Everyone has a different set of moral values, and therefore everyone's definition of evil is different. I don't know for sure, but I would suspect that it's unlikely that there's anyone who doesn't think that there is some injustice in any form of legal system, and that's because legal systems have to be a compromise created through the shared values of a people; there's no way you can ever get them "right".

And yes, I didn't even look at the date before posting. Guess I just assumed that since someone had linked to this thread that it would be active. I figure that cosmos threads never get old anyway.

ac

[RoadClosed]

a human imposed concept...to create god in our image...

I am stuck on that because god is our contruct. Without our vision of him he does not exist. This is a difficult concept to communicate in on a forum without taking up 100 pages.

We contruct what god is, no matter what shape he takes outside the boundaries of the human base of knowledge he is a contruct of our desires. He is the answer to human needs. Genertic needs I suspect.

EDIT - OOPS that wasn't directed at me.