What the media hasn't told you.

[Guus]

For the record, I'm neither Jewish nor Arabian - Even though I'm babtised in my childhood, I've chosen not to follow any religion as I simply believe that there is no such thing as a God. I agree fully with the Sharon and Arafat stepping down part.

[KorpDeath]

Originally posted here by jackthekiller
If your are saying that Prophet Muhammad never step his foot in Jerusalem you are wrong... and your unfair judgement really bother me. Well, I know that your are Jewish. In Qoran it state that JEWISH people don't know how to 'thank you' from what their GOD has do to help them. You can try to read how Jewish are asking a nonsense thing after Prophet Moses help them running from The Pharoah. I dont want to say anymore here because we should discuss about Computer, AND not arguing about thing that are not related.

I am not Jewish. I'm not an organized religion kinda guy, but thanks anyway. As for the rest of the post, I don't understand. Please clarify.

P.S. How is it my judgement? These are meerly facts that were compiled.

P.S.S. I'm not for or against either side, both are acting childish.I don't approve of people blowing themselves up in the name of any god, and I don't condone making many people suffer for the actions of a few. But, and I have to say this, it is happening in Israel.

[Terr]

I think the main problem with the US, as viewed from the Palestinian side of things is that the US sponsored several peace initiatives and such, the agreements were signed under the sponsorship of the US, and then the US did not enforce them by bringing Israel to heel. The US also used veto power in the UN to shoot down several Palestinian-protection motions, (yet now tells Israel to back off?) and most of the Israeli military hardware is American...

(I'm just rephrasing this from what an interested party told me.)

[Negative]

KorpDeath, thx for completing my ' All-Aqsua-intifada-thread

Allow me to make a couple of remarks...

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two
thousand years before the rise of Islam.

True. The State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948 though. Mention the difference between 'nation' and 'state'.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E., the Jews have had dominion
over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the
land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more
than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital.
Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the
Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their
capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

None of those can be denied, but I'd like to add something that both parties - and the Christian university professor - seem to forget:

The Koran quite openly refers to the reinstatement of the Jews in the land before the Last Judgement, where it says:

"And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, We will gather you together in a mingled crowd."(Koran, Sura 17:104, "The Night Journey")

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight
separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish
nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended
itself each time and won.

1967: During the six-day war (here's a nice reading on who started it: http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/sixdaywar.html), Israel doubles the area of land it controlled (Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt, and the Golan Heights from Syria). That's not defense anymore, that's offense...
This war displaced some 500,000 Palestinians (according to the UN).

1973: Israels revenge for the Egyptian and Syrian offensive leads to gains in the Golan Heights. In Egypt, Israeli forces even advance to the western side of the Suez Canal.
That's not just 'defense' anymore, that's offense...

1982: In an attempt to wipe out Palestinian guerilla bases near Israel's northern border, Israeli army launches a massive attack on Lebanon. Defence Minister Ariel Sharon pushes all the way to Beirut. PLO fighters are allowed to leave Lebanon thanks to a ceasefire agreement, leaving Palestinian refugee camps defenceless. The Phalangists, a Christian militia and allies of Israel, kill hundreds of Palestinians, encircled by Israeli troops, in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. In 1983, an Israeli inquiry concludes that Sharon had failed to act to prevent the massacre. Sharon resigns from his post as defence minister.

I guess the Christian professor doesn't call this a war...

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State
of Israel.

Just one remark: there are two version of that charter: the original one in Arabic, and the English translation (translated/released by the PLO). The English version states in Article 15: the elimination of Zionism, whereas the original Arabic text states the liquidation of the Zionist presence. Neither of them talk about the destruction of the State of Israel - well, depends on how you interprete the original statement of course... Reading the entire charter gives you the impression though that all they're talking about is the Zionist presence in Palestinian cities...

Here's another quote from that charter:

Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the
Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim
and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of
all faiths.

Hrmmmm.... Under Israeli rule (!), Temple Mount (Haram al-Sharif - home of the al-Aqsa mosque) was only accessible to Muslims (strange, but true - you'd expect it to be open to Jew people only (credit where credit's due)) - I'm just argueing the statement that all Muslim and Christian sites have been made accessible to people of all faiths). Temple Mount is where, according to Muslims, the Prophet Muhammad ascended to heaven. To Jews, it is where Abraham prepared his son...

[KorpDeath]

Terr-
I'll have to investigate that. (sounds dubious) You're talking about perceptions here, not fact. I simply stated some facts.

Don't slant the facts either, neither side has kept any of the deals they've made. Don't try to make it sound like Israel is some kind of lap dog that won't bend to it's master. That's propaganda from the Arab nations.

The blame lies squarely on Sharon and Arafat, don't try to deflect balme on the U.S. because it happened to get involved in a bad situation. The problems existed before the U.S. had anything to do with it.

Hopefully though, both sides will stop the needless bloodshed and start talking. But I'm not holding my breath.

[KorpDeath]

Negative- You cannot deny that the Palestinians are no more than displaced Arabs. They got trapped between the Arab nations that would not accept them and a host country that does not accept a seperate( but the same) state inside their own state.

The refugees have no where to go, and instead of the Arab nations absorbing those refugees they let them dangle in the wind, so to speak.

[AlexZello]

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think?

[nihil]

Hi Alex, and welcome to AO

Please check the dates of threads before posting to them............ like this one was six years old before you posted............. and I seem to remember some guy saying "a day is a long time in politics"

Who is Obadiah Shoher? can you post links to where we can read his thoughts?

Please do not think that I am being critical............... just curious

[foxyloxley]

nihil

that zello guy is a serial spam poster
alright, it might be POSH spam, but it IS spam
google the name
lots of forums, all one post, all the same post
Taz forums and others I admin have had the pleasure of a visit

but it HAS opened up a good reading thread
I'm just wondering WTF they will say when they finally excavate the cente of Jerusalam, and find a Mark and Spencers there