What Do You Belive Is True?

[NetSyn]

A forum dealing with philosophy, ethics, morals, laws, logical & mathematical problems, etc.

Im guess this would fall under sumthin around these lines because i was lookin for sumthin other then general chit chat to put this under cause of how much is put into that fourm...

I belive bin laden is responsible for many terrorist attacks on the US.. and from all the tapes and other things the people in the US have seen and heard its hard not to hate the creature.
I dont understand how anyone could take so many lives and still live with themselves knowin that they killed so many men, women, and children... I think the person who is responsible for these acts should just end his or her life now on ethics and morals alone. I want your opinions of if u think Bin Laden is truley responsible for these acts, and why u think that of which u do... just give us ur input on the subject so we can see many dif peoples opinions and hopefully be able to put together our own opinion on the subject and share it with us all here.

If ur going to just bad mouth on the subject please just leave this thread now cause i dont want to waste ur time our the people who are here for the REAL subject..

keep the peace
NetSyn

[KorpDeath]

No peace until bin laden dies. Kill him slowly. 'nuff said.

[laurasbestmate]

yes, it seems highly probably that OBL is responsible for the events of sept 11. As to what should be done, to my mind he should be tried by an independent tribunal for crimes against humanity, as defined by the geneva conventions.
I believe that it is important that justice is seen to be done throughout the world, the arab world especially should feel that justice was carried out. I believe this is important as It will help lessen the chances of further such atrocities occuring.

[KorpDeath]

Originally posted by laurasbestmate
yes, it seems highly probably that OBL is responsible for the events of sept 11. As to what should be done, to my mind he should be tried by an independent tribunal for crimes against humanity, as defined by the geneva conventions.
I believe that it is important that justice is seen to be done throughout the world, the arab world especially should feel that justice was carried out. I believe this is important as It will help lessen the chances of further such atrocities occuring.

Let me point out that the Geneva Convention only applies to recognized governments, not individual people. So he shouldn't have the same rights as prisoners of war. He's not fighting by the accepted rules of engagement.
You're gonna have to do allot more than just try this guy in an international court to get people to stop acting like this. it's built into their very being that hate is the way to get your point across. That's what needs to change. And that's a tall order. So in the mean time. JUST KILL THE BASTAGE!!!!!!!!!

[s0nIc]

Ok.. we all agree that a lot of people died because of him.. a lot of people lost their loved ones because of him.. and lot of lives got ruined because of him..

But wonder why he doesnt feel sorry for dem? its cause he takes pleasure in killing dem.. He sees himself as a noble warrior.. a warrior of a great being (in his case "Alah")
He believes he is fighting a holy war and that the hand of rightiousness is in his side..

every death of an american or every tradgedy he causes is a triumphant act of holyness in his eyes..

YES he is a fanatic.. and some muslim people believe that too.. dont get this wrong but there are also some people in the arab world that hates him.. coz he gives islam a bad name..

he is a fighter gone crazy.. and i wont be surprised if he will fight to the death..
in his eyes.. he is da good guy and we are da bad guys.. and whoever is not with him is against him..

he's like the new generation Adolf Hitler.. just as Adolf Hitler, they both pride themselves in their work no matter if people die.. they both think that what they are doing is for the good of all..

they both wanted to make a perfect world.. Hitler wanted to make a perfect world of people that are true blue germans.. if da person is not german.. to him dat person is nothing..

Bin Laden also sees thesame way... He wants to create a perfect world where everyone shares thesame belief as he does.. (religion doesnt really count that much as long as you believe in him)... if their belief is not same as his.. then they are either an enemy or a lower being..

But hitler started a huge war.. bin laden just started a few air strikes.. though he did shake history..

[Shangrila]

I completely agree with what s0nic said that's how I fell about him be this does not give him an excuse. I think he needs what some people call cruel and unusual punishment. My idea is to hang him up by his balls until his sac rips off and then pick every single hair off his body one by one. After that infect the ****er with the ebola virus. Die ****er die!!!!!!! That stupid ****ing piece of shit needs to die!!!! But as I already an easy execution style death isn't for him he needs to ****ing suffer!!!!

[Ouroboros]

I'm convinced that his organization is responsible for multiple acts of terrorism, first of all.
I also believe that he THINKS that he is doing the 'right' thing in the name of his particular supreme being, which he is decidedly NOT.
And I'm pretty sure that he is a full blown sociopath and coward.

The man certainly needs to be punished for his crimes against humanity, since that is what they are, and should be put to death for them.

But, Shangrila, I'm not certain that such an extreme torturous method of death is necessary. How would that solve anything or bring any of the dead back to life? Revenge is futile when seen through the eyes of the dead. It only makes the living feel better for a short while, and that's it. Just try, convict, and execute him. He'll be gone either way...and will consider himself martyred either way (possibly moreso through a torturous method). Don't give him that much satisfaction.

And you have to remember, that there are more where he came from...would you do the same to all of them? Seems a bit fiendish, if you think about it... Vlad Tepes comes to mind...

As I said in my antipoint message to you...Bloodlust isn't smiled upon by any deity.

Ouroboros

[rcgreen]

Bin Laden is what I like to call "villain of the month".
I've lived long enough to see several of these guys
pumped up by the media, only to fade in importance
as time goes by.
Bin Laden will be remembered as an outstanding
example of this type, but he's not the root of the
problem. The real problem, which our politicians
are afraid to admit, is Islam itself.
It is not popular to tell the plain truth.
Islam is an evil, monstrous philosophy.
The human race will not progress from its
present troubles until all civilized people decide
that that, like nazism and communism and racism,
we should not tolerate this kind of belief.
There is no place for such a philosophy that openly
advocates mass murder, torture, persecution of
dissidents, and ultimately the forced conversion
of the entire human race to Islam on threat of
death. We need to restart the "coldwar", putting
all Islamic governments on notice that they are on the wrong
side in the struggle between good and evil.
:cool:

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted by rcgreen

There is no place for such a philosophy that openly
advocates mass murder, torture, persecution of
dissidents, and ultimately the forced conversion
of the entire human race to Islam on threat of
death.

Sounds like the Crusades...I think they were trying to wipe out Islam then, too...

If you could quote any passages from the Koran that deal with this subject, please do so, as I don't know of any... It is the corruption and simple-mindedness of some of the 'leaders' in all religions that advocate violence towards people that don't have the same beliefs...

Ouroboros

[NetSyn]

looks like i started a pretty emotional thread ...
GO ME! hehe ;)

[rcgreen]

We were able to take a fairly hard line against
communism in our relations with Russia and China
without it getting overly emotional.
Time is on my side. It is the Muslims who are trying
to restart the crusades, and anyone can see
that it is a fight they cannot win.
At the time of the crusades, the Islamic civilization
was roughly equal to Europe in human rights,
and more technologically advanced.
The crusades were fought to stop the Islamic invasion
of Europe, and fought to a draw.
Since then, the west has progressed beyond anyone's
dreams, both in human rights and technology.
The Muslims are backward, bitter, and envious.
The path of progress, for them, is to imitate
the west, not try to defeat it.
And the first step to redemption is to abandon Islam.
:cool:

[Moody]

I don't have words to describe my feelings of Bin Laden, but the Islamic religion is not evil. They do not approve of murder. Bin Laden "thinks" he is doing this in the name of Allah, but he choose to interpret the Koran very differently then what it really says. His views are the extreme of the extremists and a very poor example of their culture.

I sure do hope that every person he has killed is haunting him right now. As for what happens when they find him, I hope they make it really good and in such a way that his supporters won't think he is dying with honor.

[angelic_ky]

Originally posted by KorpDeath
No peace until bin laden dies. Kill him slowly. 'nuff said.

Death is too quick...even if it's done slowly....besides i don't believe in the death penalty... torture OBL slowly instead

[THEJRC]

:::: now he dons the flame proof suit ::::

Yes, Osama needs to be done with! And it's people like him with their zealous logic that cause most the harm in todays world society. Notice the term zealous logic?? I fear he may be on the right track in reaching some of his goals now. America has become a fanaticly crazed country bent on hunting down Osama. Heres the trick, he is NOT the only leader, a terrorist network is just that, a network... they dont have a standard hierarchy like we do, the chain of command in these networks is designed to communicate rapidly, without uneccesarily wasting time on paperwork or "red tape" they are redundant in their control. Meaning if we take one leader out, the followers are already clear on what they must do. Our military needs the command to be there constantly. This is a different enemy folks!!

We cant stop at Osama! And furthermore we cannot publicize the fact when we DO get him. These people are crazed on the idea of dying for their cause, personally I am glad to see him run. This is what we needed, it defaced his entire vision in front of all who worshipped him, and we needed that to get the edge. Lets not lose it by letting the media give away our position, we need to strengthen our intelligence contacts, not just here in the states but elsewhere in the world. We need to learn to detach our military, to spread out! We need to continue the fight untill ALL terrorist networks are torn down, not just the leaders, all of them.

But the LAST thing we need to do is publicize the fact that we killed Osama (if and when we do). Through that we will only be giving their vision more power. We need to run in, take him out, and leave him in some cave some where.... and continue the fight elsewhere.

just my opinion
~THEJRC~

[ANTI-HACKERS]

Not only did he kill men woman and kids he also made money off it from the stock markets when he invested money in the airlines. Then before the attack sold. I say dig him a deep deep hole for this rotton apple!! I would say more but i,m in a public forum lol. :mad:






ANTI-HACKERS

[bimmer]

guys , i know exactly how u all feel for what happened, I’m not writing to defend Ben-Laden, I know that he’s an A**H*L*, but it has nothing to do with Islam.

I am a Muslim , and I know much more than u know about our religion, the Islam didn’t justify killing ppl. Just like that nor kids or women.

Me and most of our Islamic Community consider this guy as a criminal against humanity.

But I’ll tell something else, did anyone of u guys asked him self what about whats going around in the middle east , specially Palestine, I’ll tell u what !!!

If u count number of victims in my country , it will be ur victims x 1000 if not more , if u count number of houses that been tear down and destroyed it will build WTC x 50 if not more.

But , coz’ of being a small country in the middle east , no one will even notice u.

So why don’t u tern all the speech about Ben-Laden to be said about Sharon for example !!
I always wonder .. where the end of all this will lead …

is it peace or third war !

[rcgreen]

Originally posted by Moody
I don't have words to describe my feelings of Bin Laden, but the Islamic religion is not evil. They do not approve of murder.

You say that because you want it to be so, but you know better
All of our leaders are putting out this propaganda too,
because they don't want to face the horrible truth
that we are in a struggle that is bigger and broader than
a military campaign.

You will know the truth when hordes of Islamic Goblins
descend on your home town, burning, looting, and putting
a knife to your throat, giving you only this choice,
"convert or die, you infidel dog!"

As for me, I have little power to persuade you.
Perhaps you could get the koran at a local book store,
but beware, there is a death sentence for infidels to
read the islamic scriptures.

Maybe it's no big deal,to you, to convert to Islam,
to save your skin, but I will not convert and worship
their demon-god "Allah" I will not be silenced
until they take the broken axe from my dead hand.
I will say, with Gimli, son of Gloin
"There is one Dwarf still alive in Moria!"
:cool:

[the_g_nee]

I read a statement which went something like this :

"We (Islamic Fundamentalists) value dieing in the name of Allah, as much as you

(ie "westerners") value life".

This sums it all up for me, these terrorists dont care, because in their eyes

they are doing what is right by their God. They have been brainwashed - many

from a very young age - that taking lives, or giving their own life in the name

of "the cause" is justified and in many cases to be expected.

Until some of the more extreme religions throughout the world realise that the best

way forward IN EVERY CASE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT IS WANTED is to use the pen, and

not the sword then there will sadly be more instances of needless terrorist violence

:(

[bimmer]

Ok guys ... thats it for now ... after Deliberative discussion ... we don’t wanna turn this site into religions factionalism, it’s a security site … & believe me negotiating such issue will get us no where but controversial opinions …. So , what ever u r … Muslim , Christian , Honduras or where ever u r …. In that f**k*n world …. We r gathering in the same community discussing technicalities , so let it be !

[rcgreen]

But this is the COSMOS forum.
This is the right place for this type of discussion.
No one is getting flamed.
Don't worry, be happy.
:cool:

[bimmer]

I just don’t wanna anybody to get a wrong idea about my religion or race coz’ of one person …. This won’t be fair .
That’s all ….

[Moody]

rcgreen,

Right after Sept 11, I thought that maybe what had happened was okay with Muslims, but humans in general are not like that. So I decided to educate myself. I needed to know why us Americans were hated so much. I know someone who is Muslim and she lives in Kuwait so I thought a smart thing to do would be to speak to her and I did so with an open mind (that's vital if you want to learn). Bid Laden and his followers are from a group with very extremist ideals. The reason we are hated so much is because the Palestinians and the Jews are fighting over their homeland and America always backs the Jews. There is a lot of great literature available and I'm sure there is a lot of good info on the net if you are interested in learning about the people, their culture and their history.

Bimmer, I'm sorry your country has gone through so much turmoil. I hope peace comes soon.

[rcgreen]

Been to Israel. Felt sorry for Palestinians being treated
like second class citizens, but I stand behind what I
said about Islam as a philosophy.

Palestinian problem will not be solved by governments.
As long as people are identified as "groups" instead
of individuals, group loyalty will force people into
conflicts over which group "owns" the land.

The sad thing is that many individual Palestinians
have lost homes, farms and other property that
they legitimately owned as individuals.
Neither Yasser Arafat nor neighboring arab
governments have done any thing to restore
Palestinians' rights AS INDIVIDUALS.
They use them for larger political purposes.
:cool:

[laurasbestmate]

first of all big up Ouroboros and bimmer for some high quality posts

In an earlier post I said I felt that OBL should be tried under the geneva conventions, and a view was posted that he was no covered by the conventions. Whilst i don't know the complete answer, I will point out that the conventions cover militias and voluntary forces fighting, so to my mind there is a grey area at the very least.
Secondly I feel that justice is seen to been done is a politically important point. On of the factors leading to sept 11, to my mind, is anger directed at America. If justice is seen to be done in a truely independent way I beleive that it may go some way towards alleviating the frustation, and therefore providing a start towards a long term solution.

[Negative]

Originally posted by rcgreen
But this is the COSMOS forum.
This is the right place for this type of discussion.
No one is getting flamed.
Don't worry, be happy.
This indeed IS the Cosmos-forum, and it IS the right place for this type of discussion. Only one rule: no offensive posts.

Originally posted by NetSyn
I dont understand how anyone could take so many lives and still live with themselves knowin that they killed so many men, women, and children... I think the person who is responsible for these acts should just end his or her life now on ethics and morals alone.

Let me make an analogy: why doesn't Pres. Bush end his life? Why doesn't Ariel Sharon end his life?
Some interesting links...
Bush (http://www.geocities.com/icacpstudent/busheurope.html)
Bush (http://www.commondreams.org/views/062200-106.htm)
Sharon (http://www.mail-archive.com/marxism@lists.panix.com/msg28522.html)

Originally posted by Shangrila
cruel and unusual punishment woohoo!

Good you specified your post as hidden...it should be on the General Chit-chat forum though...

Originally posted by rcgreen
Bin Laden will be remembered as an outstanding
example of this type, but he's not the root of the
problem. The real problem, which our politicians
are afraid to admit, is Islam itself.
It is not popular to tell the plain truth.
Islam is an evil, monstrous philosophy.
The human race will not progress from its
present troubles until all civilized people decide
that that, like nazism and communism and racism,
we should not tolerate this kind of belief.
There is no place for such a philosophy that openly
advocates mass murder, torture, persecution of
dissidents, and ultimately the forced conversion
of the entire human race to Islam on threat of
death. We need to restart the "coldwar", putting
all Islamic governments on notice that they are on the wrong
side in the struggle between good and evil.

1. Islam is not a philosophy, it's a religion.

2. "...openly advocates mass murder, torture, persecution of dissidents..."??? Facts, please, facts... It's not because some lunatic muslim-freaks think like that, that islam is like that... And I'm pretty sure you're going to come up with a couple of Koran-quotes to proove your statement (I've got my Bible-quotes ready already, just in case...).

What you are referring to, is the Shariat: an Islamic system of justice (not THE Islamic system of justice, just another interpretation).

The 'Western human rights declaration' is based roughly on the Bible: the general principles of the Bible are 'translated' into real-life situations.

The 'Islamic human rights declaration' is based roughly on the Koran: the general principles of the Koran are 'translated' into real-life situations.

Now, the 'Human Rights Declaration of Islam' (Cairo, 1990) says
(that) people of the world are equal, because they all believe in God, and only faith in God can make the human dignity higher...[/quote]
THAT'S what Islam is about... Of course, as in Western civilization, each country makes its own laws...
And that's how this can be found in the Shariat:
Murder requires equal revenge.
This is not only a quote from the Shariat, it's also a quote I could lay in the mouths of many of you....

like nazism and communism and racism,
we should not tolerate this kind of belief (Islam).

Das Kapital (http://csf.colorado.edu/psn/marx/Archive/1867-C1/index-l.htm) Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels: THAT'S communism (as in community)...

...and...

Mein Kampf (http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_kampf/) Adolf Hitler: THAT'S nazism...

Now WHERE is the analogy?? And the analogy between Islam and nazism is completely out of my understanding... :confused:

The real problem, which our politicians
are afraid to admit, is Islam itself.
It is not popular to tell the plain truth
It's not popular to tell the plain truth... it's unfair to twist/ignore facts to come to a narrow-minded, ignorant conclusion.

Originally posted by rcgreen
Time is on my side. It is the Muslims who are trying
to restart the crusades, and anyone can see
that it is a fight they cannot win.
At the time of the crusades, the Islamic civilization
was roughly equal to Europe in human rights,
and more technologically advanced.
The crusades were fought to stop the Islamic invasion
of Europe, and fought to a draw.
Since then, the west has progressed beyond anyone's
dreams, both in human rights and technology.
The Muslims are backward, bitter, and envious.
The path of progress, for them, is to imitate
the west, not try to defeat it.
And the first step to redemption is to abandon Islam.

I'm pretty sure VictorKaum can give you the exact term for this kind of thinking (I'm not going to call it 'racism', since you seem to have no clue what exactly racism is...). You are assuming that Western civilization is greater, more 'advanced' than other civilizations. What exactly do you base your statements on? More firepower? More computers? Quality of life?

1825, Congo... some European 'holy man' to a local
The path of progress for you, my friend, is to imitate us. The first step to redemption is to become a catholic...

Originally posted by rcgreen, in reply to Moody
Perhaps you could get the koran at a local book store,
but beware, there is a death sentence for infidels to
read the islamic scriptures.
Maybe it's no big deal,to you, to convert to Islam,
to save your skin, but I will not convert and worship
their demon-god "Allah" I will not be silenced
until they take the broken axe from my dead hand.


The Koran (http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html)
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

YOU SHALL HAVE YOUR RELIGION AND I SHALL HAVE MY RELIGION.

Originally posted by the_g_nee
the best way forward IN EVERY CASE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT IS WANTED is to use the pen, and not the sword

The nail right on the head...

[KorpDeath]

Originally posted by bimmer
guys , i know exactly how u all feel for what happened, I’m not writing to defend Ben-Laden, I know that he’s an A**H*L*, but it has nothing to do with Islam.

I am a Muslim , and I know much more than u know about our religion, the Islam didn’t justify killing ppl. Just like that nor kids or women.

Me and most of our Islamic Community consider this guy as a criminal against humanity.

But I’ll tell something else, did anyone of u guys asked him self what about whats going around in the middle east , specially Palestine, I’ll tell u what !!!

If u count number of victims in my country , it will be ur victims x 1000 if not more , if u count number of houses that been tear down and destroyed it will build WTC x 50 if not more.

But , coz’ of being a small country in the middle east , no one will even notice u.

So why don’t u tern all the speech about Ben-Laden to be said about Sharon for example !!
I always wonder .. where the end of all this will lead … is it peace or third war !

So what, the Israelis don't have the right to defend themselves against terrorists. And I'm sorry that feel that there is some injustices done to the people of Islam but the Israelis have the righ tto protect their interests. Unfortunately for the masses in Palestine there are people in their midst that makes it bad for everyone.

and please don't draw comparisons to what happened in NYC to what has been happeining in Israel cause it's been going for years and years thanks to the Palestinians.

And I'm sure that you feel Yassar FAtass has done all he can to try to help the situation, don't you? Of course he has had shipments of guns and such delivered to help out the baddies over there.

But then again blaming Yassar Fatass for what's happening in Israel is kind of like blaming Ronald McDonald when you get a bad burger, neither of them have any control....

[THEJRC]

Negative : Much thanx for telling it like it is!!

To all others, We need to relax with the offending posts here!! I am not Islamic, NOR am I christian by any means. I try not to be religious because it's not worth it. (I do beleive in a supreme being, be it god, allah, or otherwise)

This "I'm better than you because" attitude is symbolic of the very hatred we started this conversation about. If indeed, you are reduced to religious or race based slander, you have fallen into the same trap Osama has led you to!! Put your faith in what you beleive in, but dont fool yourself with the thought that other faiths are wrong.

Jesus did not have blond hair and blue eyes, in fact he most probably had darker skin than our age old vision of him (look at the area he was from... facts people facts) Why lie to yourself to create a "perfect" world. It's a waste of time!! Use your time wisely in understanding, and accepting differences, if it were not for differences in beleif, you would not be satisfied with life as it is today.

Once again, just my opinion... but we DO need to chill on the slander!

~THEJRC~

[Vorlin]

What do I believe? I believe a bunch of I've-never-been-out-of-the-States people don't have a freaking clue on what Islam is *really* about. You can quote book passages all you want but until you've been over there like I have, you have a media-warped pre-conceived misconception of what those people are really like.

Islam != Nazism, no matter which way you slice it. Islam is a *religion*. Nazism is fascist propoganda with definitive hate lines drawn in the sand. Ever see the gas chambers? It's not something you take your family to, that's for sure.

I pity you, all of you people who have ignorant views of outsiders. And I'm not some foreign exchange student (or a "towelhead", as NetSyn asked yesterday on IRC.. and by the way NetSyn, what did you mean by the comment "close enough"? My living in Saudi Arabia for 10 years qualifies me as a towelhead? If so, I've got a lot of replies to that one and I can type for a LOOOOONG time). I'm as American as anyone in this country but I believe I'm a whole lot more fair in my "judgements" of other classes/races of people. It's not the color of someone's skin, whether they're male or female, or whether or not they're catholic/jewish/islamic/hindu/etc... It's what's in their mind that counts.

Let the madness stop...christ on a flaming raft, I understand that there's conflict all over the world (I've seen quite a bit, a lot more than I ever want to admit, and a shitload more than half of these gangbanger wannabe fsckers), but damn, why does it have to instigate stupid comments/shit like some of these?

[KorpDeath]

Originally posted by Vorlin
What do I believe? I believe a bunch of I've-never-been-out-of-the-States people don't have a freaking clue on what Islam is *really* about. You can quote book passages all you want but until you've been over there like I have, you have a media-warped pre-conceived misconception of what those people are really like.

Islam != Nazism, no matter which way you slice it. Islam is a *religion*. Nazism is fascist propoganda with definitive hate lines drawn in the sand. Ever see the gas chambers? It's not something you take your family to, that's for sure.

I pity you, all of you people who have ignorant views of outsiders. And I'm not some foreign exchange student (or a "towelhead", as NetSyn asked yesterday on IRC.. and by the way NetSyn, what did you mean by the comment "close enough"? My living in Saudi Arabia for 10 years qualifies me as a towelhead? If so, I've got a lot of replies to that one and I can type for a LOOOOONG time). I'm as American as anyone in this country but I believe I'm a whole lot more fair in my "judgements" of other classes/races of people. It's not the color of someone's skin, whether they're male or female, or whether or not they're catholic/jewish/islamic/hindu/etc... It's what's in their mind that counts.

Let the madness stop...christ on a flaming raft, I understand that there's conflict all over the world (I've seen quite a bit, a lot more than I ever want to admit, and a shitload more than half of these gangbanger wannabe fsckers), but damn, why does it have to instigate stupid comments/shit like some of these?

Because my friend, ignorance seems to be bred into some people. There's just no getting away from the fact that people beleive they are better than everyone else because of their color,creed, or religion.

Hatred breeds hatred. It's starts when they are kids and only gets worse the older they get.

[jared_c]

I think we should capture the bastard, tie him up in times square, and let the the people of NY take care of the rest. Make sure a webcam is pointing at him so the nation can tap in and watch.

[Noble Hamlet]

Before you read this post please do not judge my views by my past threads and mannerisms here at AntiOnline. Please adjust your mindset to unbiased. Thank you. Noble Hamlet

Firstly there is a lack of perspective here.
In an American dominated group it is hard for the Muslims among the group to freely express their views.

You see America has for so long ignored the plight and deaths that have marred Eastern society that they view their tradegy as punishable by extreme force. This is crazy considering we all have our tradegies.

Importantly although Negative has covered the vast wrongs that this thread endorses I will try reinforce some of them.

Firstly Islam is a religion not an ideology or philosophy. Theology is a different matter and mixing religion with politics is never wise.

Rightly so the US disestablished the Taliban Regime but in a 'more advanced society' surely punishing Osama Bin Ladin by toture is highly obsurd! Considering the greatest world division apart from First World/Third World is the East/West Divide that the West is supposedly the more cival of the too this kind of thinking is irrational and out of place.

Anyway aside from these perhaps controversial views I have a more pressing matter to attend to,
Communism is not Evil!
Maybe US history books are full of propaganda but last time I checked Communism was simply a failed ideology, if you are viewing Communism through the eyes of Stalin then you are restrcting your view on the subject.

To understand real Communism look at Marx and Lenin, in fact Lenin did not wish to see Stalin in power as you can read in his Testament. (http://home.mira.net/~andy/bs/1922vil.htm)

Also important to note is that perhaps the greatest Marxist writer excluding Marx and Engels themselves was a Scotsman from guess what 'The West!'.

Here have a look for yourself James Connolly (http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/)

Now that we have that all cleared up, perhaps a brief summary is in order.


Islam is a religion not an ideology of philosophy
A cival humane view should be taken on the Bin Ladin front
Communism is not evil even if Stalin tainted the Wests View.
Ignorance only prevails if you allow yourslef to fall into an ignorant majority.


And also for those who died in the World Trade Centre Rest In Peace.
For those who have died in all the tradegies of the World Rest In Peace.

Thank you all for your time.

[[WebCarnage]]

Comming from a Muslim background, yet not Muslim myself, I have noticed many things that I know that other people truely wish not to. Some people literally want to not know about the goodness, and the faithfullness of Muslims only in fear that they might turn to 'like them', and to "them"...that seems like a bad idea. Fascist parents teach their children to love one another, and to follow US law, which states to own no hatred for one's religion, nationality, or dissability. Some parents teach their children "Christian Law" - which states: Love thy neighbor as thyself"; yet continue with the harrassing of Muslims accross America.
Islam is a religion, not some idealist fundamental 'frame-of-mind' one must pick up one his/her way to die. It's a faith, a beleif. I, myself, am not Muslim however. I am Agnostic...but we can get into this later. But what I do know and have, is a respect for ALL religions. I mean, look at Hinduism...is that some crappy false religion since it's polytheistic. Since it has more than ten gods and godesses, is it a 'lesser' religion now? Not 'worthy' of ones choice?
*sigh*...ignorant people suck. Imagine if I said all Christians were stupid and hateful. For Hitler was Catholic, see. This MUST mean that all Catholics, must less Christains, must be burnt and left to die in a huge pit dug up by Jewish politians. This would not seem fair, for Hitler was just a man, just a single life form, a single being. How could one man impact a whole religion? Ah, same thing for Osama Bin-Laden, my dear dear friends. Yet you seem to think your Jesus was a savior?

I pity the fool who is ignorant in faith...for he must not know what the **** is going on...

[Noble Hamlet]

Originally posted by [WebCarnage]
For Hitler was Catholic, see.

I agree with the general viewpoint of your post.

Yes but Hitler abandoned religion and was not lets say a practising Catholic, he had no time for religion unlike Osama Bin Ladin whose whole goal is to die for his religion.

Just to point out thats all.

[rcgreen]

Originally posted by Noble Hamlet
Before you read this post please do not judge my views by my past threads and mannerisms here at AntiOnline. Please adjust your mindset to unbiased. Thank you. Noble Hamlet

Firstly Islam is a religion not an ideology or philosophy. Theology is a different matter and mixing religion with politics is never wise.


Communism is not Evil!
Maybe US history books are full of propaganda but last time I checked Communism was simply a failed ideology, if you are viewing Communism through the eyes of Stalin then you are restrcting your view on the subject.



!. All of the above. Muslims like to call it a "way of life"
I think that encompasses a lot more than what some of us
call religion. In America, people often say "religion is a private
matter", but I don't restrict the definition of religion
to ones private thoughts, and I don't think Muslims
accept that restrictive definition either.

Within a generation of its founding, Islam had conquered
a third of the known world, establishing Islamic civil law.
It is a religiously based ideology, claiming the total loyalty
of "the faithful" It is also a system of government.
To deny this is to ignore a thousand years of history.

2. A matter of opinion. I think Marx's original ideas are evil.
Stalin catches the blame for a philosophy/government/
ideology that was flawed to begin with.

If we focus on personalities instead of ideas, we miss
the point I tried to raise earlier when I claimed that
the root of the 9-11 problem is in ideology, not just
one man.
:cool:

[Ouroboros]

rcgreen...i still don't get it...

you are proposing the destruction of a major world religion, and seemingly have no regard for the people that practice it. As reflected in the previous posts, and subliminaly suggested by you, that it is not the religion itself that is the thorn in your side. Just the ideology. But such ideologies are created and propagated by mankind ourselves. It seems that nowadays, the original writings and philosophies of the world's oldest religions are being twisted into bases of 'ideologies'. This is one thing that has eternally puzzled me about religion debates. I can't think of one major world religion that hasn't done some pretty questionable, if not unforgivable, things. Except maybe Buddhism...hell, they burned themselves alive to protest Vietnam, for crying out loud.

Anyways...I don't associate myself with any particular 'religion'...kind of a 'partial atheist' so to speak. But to deny anyone to choose and/or practice a religion is not only repressive, but ignorant. The Christian ideal of 'Free Will' is something that i value deeply...and I respect anyone and everyone's, Christian, Jewish, etc. It does not apply only to Christians, in my mind, as it is a noble idea in and of itself.

It all boils down to this: "I may not agree with what you say...but I'll defend to my death your right to say it" -- Voltaire. Why doesn't this statement refer to everything? Religion, Political Affiliation, Favorite Sports Team?

To want destruction of ideas is an invitation to ignorance.

Ouroboros

[Vorlin]

In an American dominated group it is hard for the Muslims among the group to freely express their views.

You see America has for so long ignored the plight and deaths that have marred Eastern society that they view their tradegy as punishable by extreme force. This is crazy considering we all have our tradegies.

Well, I disagree with that because of the following:

1: anyone in the world has the right to come to the USA with a green card, H1 visa, as an exchange student, etc...

2: said people come over (let's use, for example, an Indian family) and establish residence with US family or whatnot. They now live in our country and can get a job, etc etc...

3: said family now lives in the US under the visa/green card allowances, which are all but null and void because they can 'disappear' into society without too much worry.

4: they live in our society and practice their religions (perfectly fine), and live with their customs (also fine).

All ideas on visas/etc aside, how can they mingle with US if they're the ones living like rats in a cave not talking to anyone? That makes no sense and I've seen more than one family doing it. The only exceptions to that statement is that the kids play with other kids all the same yet the parents and older siblings won't. No sense in that. So I disagree with that statement about how hard it is for muslims to freely state their views.

I *really* disagree with it considering that they could burn a flag on the courthouse steps in the US screaming how much they hate us, and we can't do shit yet you go over there and even *look* like you're going to blaspheme the Koran or their customs and that is YOUR ASS.

Where's the fairness in that? They treat americans like shit over there. I should know. And if you're american, and you commit a crime....you'll be wishing you WERE Bubba's bitch. Because it's a LOT worse for americans when punishment comes.

[Cykat]

its seems ive stumbled upon a volatile thread lol.

I completely disagree with just about everything that rcgreen has said. To want to destroy all of the practitioners of a religeon because you think it is evil is ludicrus. If every religeon was attempted to be wiped out by those who didnt like it or disagreed with it then the world would fall apart, it would crumble into a never-ending cycle of religeous wars.

I dont agree with the muslim faith, Im a druid, however that is what they want to believe then by all means, have at it. Bin ladens actions reflect himself, and his subbordinates, and the mass of fanatics that follow his banner.

I stopped following the tragedy about a week after it happened, know why? Because america has turned it into a way to make money. I have seen car commercials saying that you should buy their cars to help america get back on its feet, there have been telethons,(one in which Limp Bizkit destroyed a perfectly fine Pink Floyd song), the sale of american merchandise has never been higher,(flags, stickers, lovely little quotes about the inhuman torture of Bin laden) and the american people are sucking it up, because they are fickle. the majority of people have moved on in most respects, except for the select few who are still chanting for his head on a plate.

We must be a civilized nation. Attacking innocent muslims in the streets, driving cars into mosques, screaming for the torture of Bin laden, all in the name of civilization. Im sure that somewhere in your mind you have justified all of those acts somehow, and for that good sir, i pity you.

It is people like you rc, that make me ashamed to call myself an american. This was supposed to be a country based on freedom of religeon and speech, but our tolerance is much more fleeting than it was intended. If ignorance is bliss, than you are probably the happiest man alive.

(prepares to be flamed)

[Noble Hamlet]

(prepares to be flamed)
It is ok to be flamed as long as you believe you are right, those that flame you in a forum like this lack persuasive argument and resort to the lowest common denominator!

Justifiable all arguments are correct in the mind of the user unless proven wrong by either fact or evidence .

Flaming is neither so dont worry. Dont worry about AntiPoints either, hell Ive gotten a lot of negative antipoints in my time but I try not let it affect me and it is now my goal to go green again. ;)

[ordeliaoser]

look-i believe what OBL cannot be expressed in our restricted language but i still feel strongly about him living
no matter how you phrase it-no matter what someones done or how much grief and anger you hold inside
if OBL is killed for his doings-the fact will always remain that we have also taken a life.
look lock him up in a cage for all i care-this way everyday he'll know what people think,how the world is thriving without him
and perhaps in some sort of miracle he will develop a conscience and if/or when that occurs it will be a far better
destructive punishment than what we could ever wish upon him..........thats what i feel at this point of my life for the past 19 years.........

[rcgreen]

Originally posted by Cykat
its seems ive stumbled upon a volatile thread lol.

I completely disagree with just about everything that rcgreen has said. To want to destroy all of the practitioners of a religeon because you think it is evil is ludicrus. If every religeon was attempted to be wiped out by those who didnt like it or disagreed with it then the world would fall apart, it would crumble into a never-ending cycle of religeous wars.

I dont agree with the muslim faith, Im a druid, however that is what they want to believe then by all means, have at it.

I respectfully suggest that you re-read my posts.
I have not suggested that anyone be subjected
to violence or persecution, even though I have
said that their religion is evil.

If the governments of Islamic countries want to
earn respect and avoid blame for 9-11, then they
should openly proclaim that they will follow
the same policies on religious freedom as we
do in the west.

Why shouldn't a resident of Saudi Arabia
have the freedom to convert to another
faith? Why shouldn't people have the right
to go there and peacefully proseletize
for other religions?

If the people of the Islamic world had the
freedom to choose their own beliefs,
and many chose to abandon Islam,
the world would be a better place.
As for those who choose to remain Muslim,
that's ok with me, but they must renounce
violence. The burden of proof is on them
to make a show of good faith that they
have truly renounced the policy of
violence, persecution, and terrorism as
a means of spreading their "peaceful" faith.
:cool:

[lostit44]

But why should they be forced to except other religions in their country.You fall to see the main issuses why they don`t allow other religions. How many times have christians distroyed other peoples because they did not believe in Jesus? To say that the Koran teaches that anyone who does not follow the Islam way should be killed has never read the book. I`ve read the Koran, the Bible, Mein Knapf plus many other books on religion so I do understand a little bit about this. By the way before some of you get your nickers in a knot I am not Moslem nor any other religion. I have found that to many have falseifed the message. How many Christians know that Jesus was a Jew who found it intolerable to sit by and watch as his priests made a mockary out of their religion. And yet it is the same people in power in Israel as back in Jesus day, the ones he fought in the temples and who were the real reason behind his down fall. And before those folk in the states tell me I`m nuts maybe they should have watched the PBS 6 hour story that the church tried to have stopped because it told the story of Jesus from the real truth rather then some ones idea. They traced his life from start to finish and its not what the preachers tell you in church. My biggest complaint is that so many of the Christians follow their preachers blindly never asking any questions. You say Moslems are evil well let me ask you is it alright for your preachers to b*mb***** little boys and when the parents complained they just moved the preacher to a different church. Unfortunetly this has been happening now for many years in my books this is very very evil, but I do not blame all Christians nor do I call them all evil because of the perversion of a few.Before calling down other religions you should make sure that the one you follow is clean and does not have skeletons in its closet.

[bimmer]

as i told u guys before ....
this thread will be moved from OBL to religions, and this will be a very sensitive issue to discuss ….. and most of us , he might be in a good knowledge with his religion but not with others … that’s why I stopped posting coz’ I don’t wanna hurt any of u guys….
As I said from the beginning …. I AM MUSLIM …. And I’m Proud being MUSLIM …..
And if anyone would like to ask directly about ISLAM … I don’t mind … but the point I’m trying to make it clear here … we don’t want to end flaming each other religion ….
U should believe & understand ur religion first to reach a faith level.

I think this would be my last post for the thread …. Good luck .

[rcgreen]

I don't know why I won't let this go.
OK, I'll take the bait.


Originally posted by lostit44
But why should they be forced to except other religions in their country?

Would you want to live in a country where you have to
be a member of the official government religion?
:cool:

[mindrape]

violence only breeds further violence, so our actions must be of a non-violent type if true peace is to be achieved...

[[WebCarnage]]

Good point Mindrape, but what you have to understand is that most of these people were brought up with violence. Violence in their families, violence in their country, violence in their government. Being brought up where men could hardly "enjoy" their own wives since they were locked in a herum. Children are brought up to fight...so when they grow up, what else are they going to do besides fight? Thats all they know...they've been brought up to think that thats all you need to know. People in America and countries who are not bais on religion are so very lucky. Lucky that they don't have to deal with pathetic bull like Afganistan, Pakistan, and India (just three countries out of the many).

And as for RCGreen, you have a point, I doubt anybody would want to be a part of an official government religion, unless your some governmental agent, and you get a plus out of it. Yet if you look at the conditions these people are in. Look at the news...people are doing what was tabooed now because the Taliban is gone, all because they want to. What was against the law and could get you killed is no being done for fun and/or as a past time. Yet for the rest...most of these people don't even have enough money to escape. When your at the brink of backruptcy and your country's currency is worth pennies to others...how will you survive?

...Are you a survivor? Put yourself in their shoes...can you handle it?...for a lifetime?

[BERBURT]

looks to me that poeple seem to agree on the belief that osama must die and die
with great pain.
it is kind of disturbing for me.
havent we become what we dispise?
now im no supporter of bin laden or his beliefs, but what do we really know?
i only know what the government tells me or what the media says.
now he has been a problem for us and it makes me wonder what did we do to him ? what did we do to his people?
and is he the one we really want or some one who was a scapegoat.
remember our government is in no way rightious.
nor are our dealings with lesser nations.
what if this is a good way for us to stick our nose in places where it doesnt belong?
who are we to say what is right and what is wrong? who is good and who is bad,
when all we really know is what we are told.
there is more to this tan meets the eye. BELIEVE THAT
i have also heard of how we got his people to dispatch the russians and left them to fend for themselves.
also the poeple responsible in the acts theat were commited were called cowards
and things relating to that.
how can u call some one a coward when they made the ultimate sacrifice?
and were called cowards because of the way we were attacked?
how else would they do it?
I believe this will be a long faught war and there will be no positive results.
we will maintain troops on their soil and be there a long time.
how about a roll reversal. what if u had troops fom anouther country in your home town telling u where to go and what to do.
we are taking away from which we stand for.
FREEDOM. Many more people will die and all that will occur isjust more senseless blood shed

[valhallen]

Personnaly I don't know how that man can live with himself - even though he believes it is his gods will how can he sleep with the blood of so many on his hands???? I don't think he should be killed i think he should be drugged up and worked on by a team of quacks until the mental ghosts of the people he killed follow him into the depths of insanity - death is too much of a release for him - leaving in mental anguish is the only suitable punishment!!

v_Ln

[rcgreen]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=157335#post464989) by valhallen
death is too much of a release for him - leaving in mental anguish is the only suitable punishment!!

v_Ln

That's why god created hell.
:cool: