Christianity

[stflook]

Since this is the cosmos forum, I figured we'd have a look at some of the problems with Christianity, and things related. Please keep in mind that I'm not a Satanist or an Athiest. Just to set the record straight, I'm a Lutheran. I'm not antichrist or anything like that. I just like to think for myself, and know what something is before I go believing in it.

Let's start from the beginning, more specifically Adam and Eve. If you know your Bible, you will know that God told them they could do whatever they wanted as long as they didn't eat from the tree of knowledge. Satan came along in the form of a serpent, and tempted eve into eating from it, and God punished them by putting them in Hell on earth. Let's analyze this, shall we? First off, why was eating from the tree of knowledge so bad? Would it be that they could learn something that could potentially disprove some elements of Christianity as we have so many times before? I think so. Maybe you disagree, and you have every right to. There is nothing wrong with the analytical mind. Also, why did God punish both of them? Eve ate the apple. Adam did not. If God is so fair, why did he unfairly punish? I think we just found a major hole in the teachings of the Bible.

Also, Satan promises knowledge, and God punishes all those who don't follow him by sending them to hell. You can see how this links back to Adam and Eve. Anyway, why is God so bent on keeping knowledge from people. It sounds to me like there is some truth to be hidden. I still fail to see how knowledge is evil, regardless of what the Bible says.

Now, onto Jesus. In short, he was sent down to die so we all could be forgiven our sins. Let me ask you this: Why would God, the "supreme" being of the universe have to have his son killed so he could forgive us? Why couldn't he just forgive us? Also, he had to have us sin even more before he could forgive us. He couldn't forigve us until we killed his own son? Maybe I'm missing something here.

Now, let's go on to the issue of Catholicism. I'm sure we all remember how much blood has been spread by the Catholics in the past just because other cultures believed in other religions. There was the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades, just to name a couple of the wars that have been fought in Christ's name. Does such a "righteous" cause justify the killings of so many? Methinks not. No religion, even Satanism, has even some close to shedding so much blood for their cause. They also have some very odd traditions. For a long time, Catholics weren't allowed to eat meat, except for fish, on Fridays. If you know your history, you will know that there was no religious motive for the pope of the time to declare that. The reason he did that is because he was trying to help a struggling fish market get back on its feet. There was also a period when they began killing Lutherans. So at that point, they had gone from killing others to killing their own. And they did it in Jesus's name, too. It really sounds like these people followed the teachings of the Bible closely. We can also remember back to our history class, and how the Catholic church abused its power by having people pay for forgiveness. As a result, they became big, powerful, and above all, oppressive. Greed is one of the 7 deadly sins, and they certainly were guilty of it. Maybe they aren't so "righteous" after all.

In summary, Christianity preaches blind faith and threatens eternal torture for all of those who don't follow them. That is a textbook scare tactic, and perfect for thought control. It's also a perfect setup for a cruel joke. There have also been countless scientific advances that contradict the Bible that I couldn't remember them all if I devoted my whole life to it.

Once again, I'm not down on Christianity. I'm a Christian myself. I just want people to know exactly what it is they're worshipping. You should never just believe in something just because somebody tells you to, especially in religion.

I'm sure there's more, but it's really late right now, and I'm having some trouble thinking. Maybe I'll add more to this when I'm more alert. In the meantime, I'm going to bed.




Thoughts/additions/contradictions, anyone?

[8*B@LL]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post457043) by stflook
Let's start from the beginning, more specifically Adam and Eve. If you know your Bible, you will know that God told them they could do whatever they wanted as long as they didn't eat from the tree of knowledge. Satan came along in the form of a serpent, and tempted eve into eating from it, and God punished them by putting them in Hell on earth. Let's analyze this, shall we? First off, why was eating from the tree of knowledge so bad? Would it be that they could learn something that could potentially disprove some elements of Christianity as we have so many times before? I think so. Maybe you disagree, and you have every right to. There is nothing wrong with the analytical mind. Also, why did God punish both of them? Eve ate the apple. Adam did not. If God is so fair, why did he unfairly punish? I think we just found a major hole in the teachings of the Bible.

i personally think that in this story the "tree of knoledge" is used to represent knoledge of right and wrong, for if one does not know what they are doing is wrong they cannot sin; the sin lies in the intent of doing wrong. having both of them thrown out represents them no longer being able to live in a "perfect" world, because they now know wrong when they see it. also, to throw out woman and not man would be to end the species. also, you have to remember that the God of the old testament is not really a fair guy who you would like; He's a god to be feared. he doesnt sentance them to hell, he removes them from paridise(this may be some difference of opnions between our particular religions(roman catholic vs lutheran))

Also, Satan promises knowledge, and God punishes all those who don't follow him by sending them to hell. You can see how this links back to Adam and Eve. Anyway, why is God so bent on keeping knowledge from people. It sounds to me like there is some truth to be hidden. I still fail to see how knowledge is evil, regardless of what the Bible says.

erm, im not aware of this happening anywhere in the old testament. could you quote a passage for me? AFAIK, hell isnt really talked about untill the new testament, where Jesus saves EVERYONE from hell, so any banishing-to-hell before that would be rather pointless because that would be where everyone would go anyway.

Now, onto Jesus. In short, he was sent down to die so we all could be forgiven our sins. Let me ask you this: Why would God, the "supreme" being of the universe have to have his son killed so he could forgive us? Why couldn't he just forgive us? Also, he had to have us sin even more before he could forgive us. He couldn't forigve us until we killed his own son? Maybe I'm missing something here.

here the point was not to have his son killed, but to have Jesus, in death, take on all the sins of the world, go to hell, and fight his way out(basically; i think the actual language is "trimph over satan")

Now, let's go on to the issue of Catholicism. I'm sure we all remember how much blood has been spread by the Catholics in the past just because other cultures believed in other religions. There was the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades, just to name a couple of the wars that have been fought in Christ's name. Does such a "righteous" cause justify the killings of so many? Methinks not. No religion, even Satanism, has even some close to shedding so much blood for their cause.

well, religious zelotism was in no way limited to Catholicism. infact, if you could look back and get actual records further back, im sure that you would find that Jews killed quite a few back in their day in the name of God. also, this in no way actually takes an issue with the religion itself. there is no part of Catholic doctrin that says "you must kill anyone who does not believe what you do"...infact far from it, it preaches kindness to all, even non-believers. all this takes issue with is corruption of the past. if you look at the time periods these examples are taken from, you will find that people were killing people left and right for just about any reason they could find.

They also have some very odd traditions. For a long time, Catholics weren't allowed to eat meat, except for fish, on Fridays. If you know your history, you will know that there was no religious motive for the pope of the time to declare that. The reason he did that is because he was trying to help a struggling fish market get back on its feet.

this rule is still in effect(sorta) for certian times. it has nothing to do with the fish marked, but has to do with sacrificing things you like to show your faith(something i dont personally agree with, but understand)

There was also a period when they began killing Lutherans. So at that point, they had gone from killing others to killing their own. And they did it in Jesus's name, too.

yes, its called the inquisition(it was NOT limited to spain, as alot of people think). durring the inquisition many christians were killed, you know why? because they were protistants, and as such were concidered HERITICS. the church at the time thought that something had to be done to "fix" the situation, and hence the inquisitions began.

We can also remember back to our history class, and how the Catholic church abused its power by having people pay for forgiveness. As a result, they became big, powerful, and above all, oppressive. Greed is one of the 7 deadly sins, and they certainly were guilty of it. Maybe they aren't so "righteous" after all.

once again you take issue of corrupt people of the past. this really has nothing to do with the religion itself, just greedy bishops and popes from a long time ago. just so you know, the actuall practice was to sell either religious icons or papers saying "this paper forgives you for X sins". the practice was stoped a LONG time ago(middle ages or early renosance if im not mistaken).

In summary, Christianity preaches blind faith and threatens eternal torture for all of those who don't follow them. That is a textbook scare tactic, and perfect for thought control. It's also a perfect setup for a cruel joke. There have also been countless scientific advances that contradict the Bible that I couldn't remember them all if I devoted my whole life to it.

i cant really argue with the blind faith part, but i cant really think of any religion that doesnt say "you must believe because it is what you should believe". as far as the erernal torture, im not sure i agree with that, as one can lead a virtious life and not believe in christ...i can hardly see the God of the new testament allowing them to go to hell in that case. also, i cant really think of ANY religion which doesnt say "if you dont believe in my religion bad stuff will happen to you after you die". the whole scientific thing isnt really true. any scientific advances can be explained within the context of the bible with some interpretation(infact, feel free to chalenge me with one).

You should never just believe in something just because somebody tells you to, especially in religion.

im definatly with you on this one, and i do think there are some problems with some things within christianity.

this is not ment as a flame, just offering other opnions/views.

[BERBURT]

personally i belive religion itsef is meant to oppress
look but dont touch
touch but dont taste
sacrafice now reap rewards after you die
notice the main idea of the 10 commandments
concerns man and god and nothing else
what about the planet?
it just sounds like a bunch of crap to me.

[BERBURT]

oh and one more thing how come jesus didnt know the world is round
if he did he would have said so
that would be a feat wouldnt it all he would have to do is prove it

[8*B@LL]

um...why would Jesus have said the world was round? what could have possibly come out of that other than more people thinking he was crazy? how would you have had him prove it? its not like anybody would have been able to comprehend anything he did to "prove" the world was round...

[gold eagle]

stflook - a lot of questions here. Part of my family is Lutheran, part Anglican, part Catholic etc. I’ve gone to many different denominations services and wondered myself at the whole things.

No one should criticise for asking honest questions. Good post.



I'm not going to defend Christianity here. If something has value it will defend itself.

A few points here -

it was the tree of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. not knowledge itself.

The Deistic point of view was not to want beings to have something they could not handle and therefore be corrupted with. Consider children being given access to things that could destroy them. Matches? What about firearms, gasoline, pornagraphy, fireworks?

The fruit was not an apple, that is merely church tradition. No one knows what it was.

Read that story over and you will see they both did, in fact eat of the fruit.

Satan does not promise knowledge. Studying satanism shows he promises alternate paths other than Gods.

The whole issue of God sending his son is illogical. It cannot be understood under normal circumstances. So calld theologians have discussed and argued this forever it seems. Like all matters pertaining to faith it must be accepted. Or not.

The whole Catholic issues is far too large to cover here but the newly formed Protestants were seen as a threat and the Pope and his advisors felt they had to deal with it. I strongly disagree with them on the matter. The same thing has happened in Islam where Sunnis fought Shias for years. Conflicting interpretations.

All in all a very discussion oriented thread. Well done.
:(

[stflook]

Just a little addition.

First, I never said Adam and Eve ate of an apple. I never specified what they ate. Maybe they did both eat of it, though. I'm no expert on the Bible, so I could very well be wrong. All of this came from my own head. Most of it is not quoted from the Bible, so if you ask me for a passage, you probably won't get one. Some of it is generalized as well, so don't expect a backup quote from the Bible on that, either.


I think the whole idea of religion as a whole is just a way for people to theorize about those things they don't know. Other religions have proven that time and time again. It also seems that it is a way for people to cope with the fact that they're mortal. Many people cannot cope with the fact that they will not exist for the majority of eternity, so they created religion to tell them that they will have everlasting life in one form or another. That's my theory, anyway.

If Christians are right, I'm in deeeeep trouble.... ;)

[BERBURT]

now i recieved a few negative anti points and I am not to happy about that, and I think it was due to my previous post in this forum. Everyone has their opinion and shouldn't be penalized for voicing it. So I am going to give you what I really think. Take it for what its worth... here it goes...
What if Jesus was an alien? Half human and half alien, and don't take offense to the word alien, because alien actually means anything that is not to this planet. Say the virgin Mary who supposedly had a "divine conception" we'll just say artificial, because that is possible nowadays. You can take a virgin, take her to the doc, and stick a pop up in her and she is still a virgin. It is possible today to have an immacculate conception with modern science.
Let's just say she was abducted by aliens and artificially inceminated and returned to Earth. Upon the birth of Jesus Christ, the star that was in the sky that was so big was actually not a star but in fact a ship, an alien ship that was witnessing the birth of the baby.
having alien powers would explain the kinda stuff he was able to do....
also what if noah"s ark was a ship but not in the sense that it floated but mabey a space ship
if think about it and dont believe in aliens
just think about this how come in the past 150 years we have advanced more in technology
than we have in the time we have been here.
well take Thomas Edison and his lightbulb he attempted to make it work over 1000 times
and if u look at his firs attempt and his last they are identicle
so it would be safe to say that he knew it would work his problem was to get the fillament to burn.. in my opinion he had to have seen it and copied it. mabey he was abducted and had a light shinning in his face and remembered.
and the bitch about it is the light bulbs he made are still working to this day.

[mindrape]

here is a small thought...

the Chrisitian concept of God is one of a supreme being who is perfect and absolute. a God that is all love, all knowing, perfectly just, and the creator of all things. if this is true, then why did God create Adam and Eve knowing before hand that they would sin against him by eating from the forbidden tree. why did God create the world knowing before hand that many would not follow him and enter hell upon their deaths. why did God create Lucifer if he knew he would turn against him? etc... etc... ill hold off on theodical arguments for now...

i apologize if i over generalized the Chrisitian conception of the divine... i know many Christians look at God in different ways...

[psychosquee]

Unlike stflook, I am not a Christian of any sort. Nor can I be considered having a religion of any kind. I don't really know why. I do however, follow my own sort of values and principles... I do have a well balanced set of morals, and therefore have no need of a religion. I censor nothing, and therefore wish not to be censored by anyone nor anything thing. For me, life is for me to live the way I feel fit to, not how a "divine being up above" wishes for me to live. The funny thing about Christianity is the wonderful aspect of "blind worship"... follow me, but NO QUESTIONING! I think stflook made a reference to it in his thread-starting post. I used to go to a chistian facility of worship... actually, I went to two, one general Chrisitian, and a Catholic Church. I didn't like either. I questioned the beliefs of the church when I was in 6th grade, and they didn't like me for it...

[BERBURT]

oh and no im not stoned
im on free thought

[bluepnrc]

Oh babies

Why are you talking about a thing that doesn't exist?

What is the reason of believing and 'faith'?

There's no dog, only mutha****as that want to kill our mind and pretend to live without a righteous work (i mean almost any work, don't include true criminal activities like being the president of the USA or the like).

****ing priests...

I'm laughing of them all!!

...and you better do the same

Hello...i'm wondering if anyone is going to read this

Bah!

[bluepnrc]

There's no dog-> i mean god

[Dr Toker]

First off, why was eating from the tree of knowledge so bad?

Eating from the tree of "good and evil" as God called it, was wrong because he told them not to. He put one rule in Adam's life because God didnt want his creations to be like the creations before us. Angels. They can't deny Gods awesome power because they are in his presence day after day. But Satan told eve that she would become like God, if she ate the fruit. So she ate it. then Gave it to adam, And he ATE IT TOO.thats why he was punished as well

And knowledge my friend is an awesome thing! In Psalms it tells us to pursure knowledge with a passion. Tells us that with knowledge comes wisdom. I don't belive in religion at all, and agree with alot of what you said, about the catholic church. ANYONE who kills/murders in the name of God is blaspheming the name and will pay for it. But man, I just can't deny the fact that there is a God in some alternate dimension watching everything, wondering why we hate him so much.Why we won't belive.

Ya know, it's like this...we have an energy inside of us.That energy is called majic by the Pagans. A soul, by the belivers.This energy cannot be destroyed. When we die our body dies where does our energy go?

Another thing, so many ppl "belive in ghosts" already they are acknowledging the fact that there is another realm of existance.But for some reason they deny the fact that God is real. Pathetic... It's sad really. I dont know how i could live my life if I thought for one second there was'nt a God watching over us all. You dont belive in God? Then tell me where does love come from. I dont think our hearts are truly capable of love without Him. Agape Love.

[jethro]

Firstly stflook, isn't your avatar the self-proclaimed anti-christ?

Anyway, I don't care. I think we can all get along in a new religion I am creating. It's called Jethroism (I added the "ism" part myself).

Basically in Jethroism, there is a membership fee, which you pay monthly. Then there are fees on special occassions like "Jethro's Day" and "St. Jethro's The Wonderful" and "Tuesday".

If you want to join, email me with your credit card information and/or your bank account number. Thank you very much,
St. Jethro

[gold eagle]

Just a quick thought on this Jethro. I order to be sainted, you often have had to have been martyred in some inglorious way. Are you volunteering to be the patron saint of AntiOnline?

[rcgreen]

The purpose of Christianity is to offer something
that (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't offered by the
other religions, the forgiveness of sin.

As for the price of admission, that's been covered
by the founder. You're invited to the party. Come
as you are.

You say you haven't comitted any sins? Not a problem.
If you have no sin, you don't need forgiveness, do you?
:cool:

[[WebCarnage]]

Christianity...aahhh...the religion of religions as some say. The feeling that once you die, you will live again, forever. The thought, that you are always being watched over, and it will never cese. The knowledge you've attained, and knowing that you are a slave to God.

I have never heard more rubbish in my life. Infact, reincarnation is a more reasonable and more scientific than living once then forever...in that manor and order - whether it be in heaven or hell. That sounds a bit odd doesn't it. Maybe it's the fact that you get one, and only one chance to prove yourself to the Almighty. But then, I ask...why should we prove anything to our God... With right comes responsibility my dear friends... It looks like he's loosing the winning battle. He had the right to send us down here...but not the responsibility of maintaning order? How can this be? Is God wrong? ...

...No, bah, he is never wrong. He knows nothing of wrong. He is no wrong...yet it is all around us? Why, then did he create such an aweful thing? Why, then...are you born into sin, as the bible states? To Him, we must all be a game...a toy of somesort... He is merely watching and rooting his side. His Jesus (probably equal to a "Queen" in chess), has been moved...and has died. Us pawns must fight an everlasting battle...until He gets bored. Everlasting life? Maybe in a new game...

Or maybe there just isn't a god in the first place... there is complete and utter 'nothingness'. Just particles floating in the deep abyss waiting for an atom or two to find it. Lonly must be the one who is God...unless he created his own little home. Imagine our God not even being how powerful as he states. It's possible - why can't it be that God actually lied and said things that arn't true...like creating the universe in seven days, or him being the most powerful being ever. What if he committed his own sin? Is it possible that he has gods himself that He must worship or loath?

-------------------------------------------GameOver - Insert More Coins-------------------------------------------

[jethro]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post460852) by gold eagle
Just a quick thought on this Jethro. I order to be sainted, you often have had to have been martyred in some inglorious way. Are you volunteering to be the patron saint of AntiOnline?

Well I plan to fake my own death. I am going to drive over a cliff and jump out at the last minute. Then I am going to "come back to life". And as regards the whole "miracle thing", I'm sure that a good computer, a blue screen and a bit of imagination will do that part for me.

Patron saint of AntiOnline? How about "St. Jethro of the Flamers"?

[rcgreen]

Well I plan to fake my own death. I am going to drive over a cliff and jump out at the last minute. Then I am going to "come back to life". "St. Jethro of the Flamers"?

Ok try this (http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/index_darwin1995.html)
:cool:

[Alcatraz]

I dislike these threads, because I'm a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in the afterlife. I believe Jesus was God's son. I believe God created the universe. And you know what? I don't have a single reason too. This thread, and scientific logic just about prove that there is no God. But that doesn't stop me. Nope, I STILL believe in God, and Christianity.

Really. I'm serious.

But let me be more specific. I also think that a lot of people abuse God's name. Like the Catholics in the Inquisition, and those in just about every Holy War. I also think that the Bible should not be interpreted literally. A lot of the stories in it are just there to prove one point. For example, there's a parable about a prostitute who pesters an unjust judge so hard and for so long that he forgives her. This is just to prove that God will forgive anyone, not that he is unjust.

And I don't really like church. It's too structured. People become too obsessed with the rules not with actual belief in God.

Then for Adam and Eve. Somebody said that it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Not just knowledge. IMO, God likes knowledge, and will still let you into heaven if you learn a lot and if you follow Satan for a while. Satan just gets pissed if you follow God.

There's also a thing about Christianity that non-christians and most christians don't realize. You don't have to follow the rules! You can eat whatever you want when you want. Rules are just designed to give individuals power. Pharisees in the bible made rules and forgot about God. They were more into following rules than God. No matter what you do, you can still get to heaven. You can be a murderer and get to heaven. And is that unfair? Here, on earth, it seems like it is. Why should a bad guy get to heaven when you've lived your life perfectly. Well...I don't know...but I'm willing to accept it.

I could go onto other points if anybody wants me to, or if I get the urge, but I'm tired so I'll finish this up.

A. How did the Universe originate? If it was originally nothing then what made it into something. You'd have to add something intangible, namely, God.

B. This is what Christianity does for me, personally, in as short a shpiel as possible. I'm living with a hope that I'll get eternal life and that God cares about me. Now there are two possibilities here: 1. My hope comes true and I go to heaven. Yay! 2. There is no God, and when I die I become nothing, or am reincarnated. But of course, if this is true, I won't know it. I'll still have had my hope...which many people don't, and which makes me feel good inside and I'll never know God doesn't exist. Now that is a win win situation!

[stflook]

Please, add more points. This kind of discussion is exactly what I wanted.

[centaur]

hmmm "stflook"........let me tell u one thing ...this whole idea really sucks ......you know why ....bcoz.....that the reason to all the problems in this world .......AND COULDU TELL ME WHO DID THIS ........IT WAS US HUMAN BEINGS .............who created christainity ,islam,judaism,and all the religions in this world ..it was us my friend .....we people did it.....u qouted about jesus.....i presume u have read the bible well ........couldu qoute me one verse....where jesus .....tell us to follow chritainity .......YES..HE ASKED US to BELIVE IN GOD .......he didnt ask us to follow .....he asked us to belive in the almighty ......
My friend ...i dont belive in religion .....i hate the whole concept...i am neither an aethist .....i belive in GOD...i believe in that FORCE THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE WHOLE UNIVERSE ....IF u belive in the Newtons law ......u know that ....for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction........then u would agree with me when i say ...for the bigbang to
occur there has to be something makin it posssible .........
Ok now to come to ur ur doubts the creation ........ have u for one moment thought about ...who the author of the BIBLE is?
let me tell u my friend ...BIBLE was written by lots of people .........SO u could expects errors
to happen......we are just humans my friend ....we do make errors.....
LET ME SUM UP EVERTHING I JUST SAID ......u said christainity was blind faith ......tellme one religion which is not blind faith .......these are things u cant argue ...ther are lots of unanswerd questions ..whether GOD exist...why is being so cruel ...i cant answer neither can u !!!...its tough to be a human being ......but what the heck ......THINK !!!! THATS WHAT MAKES US HUMAN BEINGS .......THINK AND U WILL HAVE THE ANSWER .....THINK WHY YOU ARE HERE NOW .........B'COZ ...U TRY TO THINK DIFFERENT .......

[stflook]

First, the fact that humans created religion is exactly why I doubt it. History has taught us that humans come up with gods in order to explain what they can't otherwise. I know all the religions promote blind faith, but Christianity seems to have produced the most uptight, in-your-face, save your soul, control every aspect of your life idiots I have ever seen. I'm not down on Chrisitanity, or any other religion. I'm not even down on people who want to follow Christianity. I AM down on those who try to force all the rules of Christianity on me, either with or without the beliefs that go with it.

As far as people writing the Bible, I understand that there can be errors made in both writing and translation. The only problem with this argument is that I never brought it up. I'm arguing against Christianity and what it stands for as a whole. I'm not doing a whole lot of nitpicking here.

About the Big Bang, it's not theorized to be the beginning of everything. It's theorized to be the beginning of the universe as we know it. It's theorized that the Big Bang created the universe as we know it (which seems to be expanding from a common point, supporting the theory of an explosion). It's also theorized that the universe will shrink back upon itself, and another Big Bang will occour.


I'm not sure if I got everything you posted. It was very hard to read.

[jethro]

Congratulations centaur. Possibly, the most annoying post I have ever read in my life! Well Done! :)


Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post461686) by centaur
hmmm "stflook"........let me tell u one thing ...this whole idea really sucks ......you know why ....bcoz.....that the reason to all the problems in this world .......AND COULDU TELL ME WHO DID THIS ........IT WAS US HUMAN BEINGS .............who created christainity ,islam,judaism,and all the religions in this world ..it was us my friend .....we people did it.....u qouted about jesus.....i presume u have read the bible well ........couldu qoute me one verse....where jesus .....tell us to follow chritainity .......YES..HE ASKED US to BELIVE IN GOD .......he didnt ask us to follow .....he asked us to belive in the almighty ......

[gold eagle]

ok.

jethro - Erm, St Jethro of the flamers. Now you must do something fantastic. After that someone will write the Pope on your behalf and you're all set. :D

Stflook - A good thoughtful post.

Someone who thinks before they write, imagine if more AOers were to do that.

Can you further expound your questioning basis with supporting rationale about why you find some of the Christian rules disagreeable. The thread so far has no morons trying to flame anyone. :)

[[WebCarnage]]

Originally posted by: Alcatraz
I could go onto other points if anybody wants me to, or if I get the urge, but I'm tired so I'll finish this up.

A. How did the Universe originate? If it was originally nothing then what made it into something. You'd have to add something intangible, namely, God.

B. This is what Christianity does for me, personally, in as short a shpiel as possible. I'm living with a hope that I'll get eternal life and that God cares about me. Now there are two possibilities here: 1. My hope comes true and I go to heaven. Yay! 2. There is no God, and when I die I become nothing, or am reincarnated. But of course, if this is true, I won't know it. I'll still have had my hope...which many people don't, and which makes me feel good inside and I'll never know God doesn't exist. Now that is a win win situation!

Science and Christianity arn't that far apart dear friend. You say there couldn't be nothing, for something had to create that other something, namly the Earth, sun, stars, ect - your intangible is God. Now, science's intangible (lets say), is the Big Bang, for if it were true, it too would have created the Earth, sun, stars, ect. You and me are running the same race, and were both in first place...


You talk about hope in God, and how it makes you feel good, or better 'inside'. Now, what makes you think that Agnostics or Athiests don't have hope? We do certainly! We have hope in friends, in family, in the future...and these things are the bare essentials, that even some Christians don't have!, for they are to caught up in giving all their hope to a God, that may or may not be their. Yet your friends, good or bad, will always stay. Hope can also be another intangible for the creation of life if you look at it 'correctly'. Religion is broad... If there is a god, I doubt he cares what religion you are, who you belive in, who you pray too, who you seek rapture with... As long as you respect your fellow mate, and care about everybody, not just yourself...

[Alcatraz]

[WebCarnage]

Science and Christianity arn't that far apart dear friend. You say there couldn't be nothing, for something had to create that other something, namly the Earth, sun, stars, ect - your intangible is God. Now, science's intangible (lets say), is the Big Bang, for if it were true, it too would have created the Earth, sun, stars, ect. You and me are running the same race, and were both in first place.

OK, this argument won't help me, but I've always been of the opinion that science requires that something come from something. If nothing was there in the first place, then what caused the big bang?

[WebCarnage]

You talk about hope in God, and how it makes you feel good, or better 'inside'. Now, what makes you think that Agnostics or Athiests don't have hope? We do certainly! We have hope in friends, in family, in the future...and these things are the bare essentials, that even some Christians don't have!, for they are to caught up in giving all their hope to a God, that may or may not be their. Yet your friends, good or bad, will always stay. Hope can also be another intangible for the creation of life if you look at it 'correctly'.

I have the same hopes as you as well, family, friends, future, success, happiness...all that. But I also have hope in God. I mean, what do you think will happen to you when you die?

[WebCarnage]

Religion is broad... If there is a god, I doubt he cares what religion you are, who you belive in, who you pray too, who you seek rapture with... As long as you respect your fellow mate, and care about everybody, not just yourself...

That's also true, religion doesn't matter that much. But if you want a God you should probably have a religion and Judaism and Islam are two structured. Not eating pork? Praying to Mecca? Those are rules employed by humans, not something that will help your belief in God.

stflook

Christianity seems to have produced the most uptight, in-your-face, save your soul, control every aspect of your life idiots I have ever seen.

This is especially true of Catholics and other denominations who emphasize rules. I don't believe Christianity is supposed to be uptight or in-your-face or controlling. People just added that so that they could gain power. Not once did Jesus ever force a person to believe in God. It's all based on faith and it has been said in the Bible that your sins will be forgiven...meaning you break control, you screw up, you still get to heaven.

[stflook]

I never blamed this on Christianity itself. Christianity does suggest, however, that you should try to persuade people of other religions to believe in Christianity. It's just that people took this to such a ridiculous extent that they forgot what their cause was, and what they were doing was far worse than not believing in God.

Then there's the Jehova's witnesses....
Am I the only person that's annoyed to death by them? Going door to door trying to push their beliefs on you....AAAUGH!! Next time I see one of them moving down my neighborhood, I'm going answer the door completely naked, with a porno flick playing in the background, tell them my girlfriend is waiting for me, and I'm going to give them each a condom. THAT should mess with their heads.....

[Alcatraz]

Hahaha!! They'd probably convert to some other religion, if you did that...

But yes, Christianity does suggest trying to get other people to believe in the religion...except, that's kind of messed up. People believe what they want to believe. Nobody should be forced to do anything. All a person should do is point out the good and bad points of an issue and leave it at that.

But why I'm still talking? This is all basically what you said...

[gold eagle]

Actually several religions have the proselytation of their beliefs in effect. It is not just Christianity. Leaders of various faiths have long espoused the value of promoting what they hold to be true.
sftlook - what about if you AND your girlfriend surprise them in just that fashion. :0

[stflook]

Which religions have that? I'm not an expert here, so forgive the stupid question. I find it interesting that Christianity is the only one that has had that philosophy abused so badly, and so many times. There must be something different about it.

sftlook - what about if you AND your girlfriend surprise them in just that fashion. :0

I'd have the camera handy. All's I need now is a girlfriend. I'd get some of that leather stuff for both of us, just to add to the effect. I'll post the picture when I go through with this. It oughta be priceless!

[redsdemon]

Maybe I miss something but didn't Eve seduce Adam into eating the fruit? Not quite seduce but he loved her so much that she could convinced him to eat the fruit. I see in this that even though Eve was naive and was convinced to eat the fruit Adam loved Eve enough to defy God. Love is more powerful than ANY other source. It might be looking into it to far for meaning but God sent Adam out because he loved Eve more than God and Eve didn't want to be stuck under the power of someone who would place in front of her that she couldn't EVER have. It wasn't greed, it was contempt for someone who would refuse to show the respect that everyone deserved. She disliked that he would say he loved them but make them bow to him. Unfortunately many men were made in "his" image. Woman has an instinct to get all she can to share with her family. Power is needed and respect is wanted. She is needed to create more life and, because of instincts, to take care of her husband. Doesn't she deserve to be equally respected. Both God and woman give life. Man assists and is needed for love, care, and reproduction. He also deserves equal respect.


Wow, that was deep!!

[[WebCarnage]]

Maybe I miss something but didn't Eve seduce Adam into eating the fruit?

You have to remember that this was a story written by people. Now, obviously you must know about the distinction between men and women back in the day. And blaming the woman for death was reasonable...for, a man could never do such a selfish thing - stealing from the tree of knowledge - right? :p. Thats the problem with religion, so many books, so many paths... all of them right in a certain way. And it's tough deciding which one to choose, when to choose it, and how to execute it.

Originally posted by: Alcatraz
OK, this argument won't help me, but I've always been of the opinion that science requires that something come from something. If nothing was there in the first place, then what caused the big bang?

I suppose there was always something, I mean,...you say what caused the big bang, but I could just come back at you asking: What caused God's existance? Christianity says there was always a god, so I guess, there were always combustible particles...

I have the same hopes as you as well, family, friends, future, success, happiness...all that. But I also have hope in God. I mean, what do you think will happen to you when you die?

I think, and this might sound a bit far fetched, that when you die, you create your own 'personal' heaven. Now this can include anything and anybody... but you are no longer on earth living, but rather, anywhere at anytime living. Sort of like a dream... or having a form of schizophrenia.

That's also true, religion doesn't matter that much. But if you want a God you should probably have a religion and Judaism and Islam are two structured. Not eating pork? Praying to Mecca? Those are rules employed by humans, not something that will help your belief in God.

Yes, exactly the same as saying going to church every Sunday, and repenting your sins in a booth with a stranger. Not to mention door-to-door converting/preaching... Christianity mate, also has rules emplyed by humans...

[Alcatraz]

[WebCarnage]
I think, and this might sound a bit far fetched, that when you die, you create your own 'personal' heaven. Now this can include anything and anybody... but you are no longer on earth living, but rather, anywhere at anytime living. Sort of like a dream... or having a form of schizophrenia.


I always figured heaven would be like that anyway, except more official and real. Ever read anything by C.S. Lewis?

[WebCarnage]
Yes, exactly the same as saying going to church every Sunday, and repenting your sins in a booth with a stranger. Not to mention door- to-door converting/preaching... Christianity mate, also has rules emplyed by humans...

Maybe I should defend Christianity here, but I don't really want to. Door to door converting is weird... confessing to a priest isn't all that great... and I don't really like church. Basically, I dislike all religious rules employed by humans, but that doesn't leave me with much of a religion, does it?

And another unrelated note, I don't think the old testament is entirely true. I mean the Garden of Eden story doesn't account for dinosaurs or facts that science has already proved. The bible has to be taken with a grain of salt, just like today's media.

[[WebCarnage]]

And another unrelated note, I don't think the old testament is entirely true. I mean the Garden of Eden story doesn't account for dinosaurs or facts that science has already proved. The bible has to be taken with a grain of salt, just like today's media.


Proving that only science can be trusted 100% mate. And religion should be taken lightly - yet the morals and virtues should be taken into heart.

Which I think religion was intended for. "To many bad people, lets say: eternal damnation for all those who are bad people" and viola...problem (sumwhat) fixed. Then this obviously could go on for not eating meat - for 'back in the day' meat got infected so much more easily for they didn't have refrigeration as we do or antibiotics...so "No eating meat or you are damned to eteral hell" ...and viola...no meat/pork/whatever eating.

[Alcatraz]

Which I think religion was intended for. "To many bad people, lets say: eternal damnation for all those who are bad people" and viola...problem (sumwhat) fixed. Then this obviously could go on for not eating meat - for 'back in the day' meat got infected so much more easily for they didn't have refrigeration as we do or antibiotics...so "No eating meat or you are damned to eteral hell" ...and viola...no meat/pork/whatever eating.

I never thought of that, and how come the Christians back in olden times didn't have those meat rules? Sounds like a conspiracy! But I do wish rules would be updated with the times. Some things just don't apply, but people insist on making them and end up stuck in the past.

[rcgreen]

Religion isn't supposed to keep up with modern times.
It is meant to point to some universal truth that
remains valid regardless of circumstances.

Read a science textbook from 20 years back.
Today they have "disproven" all the stuff
that they swore was "scientifically proven fact".

The stuff that they teach today will be denied
20 years from now.
Science is a method of study, not a body
of absolute knowledge, and certainly not a
reliable basis for morality IMHO.
:cool:

[stflook]

This is a good point. However, not much has been discovered to support any of Christianity's claims. That's not my argument, though. My argument is with the lessons it's trying to teach. Many of it's lessons are very good ones, such as treating each other with decency, and maintaining as nonviolent a life as possible. It's a wonderful way to govern the weak-minded, and to give them hope and faith in something (I don't mean to imply that all Christians are weak-minded. That's certainly not the case.). I just think that some of the messages are wrong. So far, I seem to be wrong on the Adam and Eve argument, and possibly the knowledge argument. However, Christianity, like any other religion, preaches blind faith, which I think is wrong. If I'm going to believe in it, I'm going to learn about it. The only problem is that one of the best ways I learn is to argue. Being that it's a big no-no to argue with God, I'm not in the best position.





I also think that Christianity's messages have been taken way too far, too many times. Millions upon Millions of lives have been taken in the name of somebody who preaches peace. Christianity preaches persuasion of other cultures to believe in Christ, and too many times, that has been taken so far that all other rules and values have been forgotten. Many wars have been fought in the name of a religion that preaches quite hard against wars. There are many ways to interpret the Bible, but I find it hard to believe that there is any way to interpret it to be encouraging such violent behavior, even if it is against "heathens".

[Dr Toker]

There is no such thing as a holy war.I don't care who is fighting it. When Jesus came for us, he said to turn the other cheek. STFLOOK> Man wages war. Not God. This whole "war on terror" is begining to look like a "holy war" on our side now. With all the God Bless America stuff going around. But you know what? How can we expect to have God bless to us when all we do is curse His name. How about this. America Bless God. Then maybe we would be in a different situation. Our dirty,filthy, sin filled life is coming back on us.

As for blind faith...I would like to know where it tels you in the BIible to have blind faith. I know it says " if you have yet the faith of a mustard seed you can move mountains." and it goes on about how we should have the faith of a child. You should want to be informed. God wants us to know as much as we can. But you will see once you open the eyes of your heart, that God is out there. You will begin to see past all the religion , regulation, and over all cynism. Because all of this your talking about is all the things i don't like about MAN's god.
But when you look at the Bible, you see the undeniable truth. All creation screams of his existence. If I tell you one thing STF. Don't look at man for god. Look at God for God. I am that I am.

[PhirePhreak]

Greetz.
Stflook> hopefully you know where I stand on this so you are prepared for me to possibly be kinda harsh... but I will make it as painless as possible... at least to begin with.

God sent Jesus (his only Son) to earth to die for our sins. *fumbles around for Bible... it's here somewhere... ah found it*

Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Also, if you know the Bible at all, you know that God wants more than anything to have an intimate relationship with every single person.

Romans 3:23 says "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." We've all sinned, so that means that we're all condemned to Hell. How can God have a personal relationship, and why would we want it, if we're all gonna die and go to Hell anyway? So God sent his Son to die for our sins so that we will be forgiven of those sins, no matter how bad they may be, and that allows us to a) have a deeply intimate relationship with God, and b) after having that relationship, we can go to Heaven to live with Him for forever.

Just to annoy you *cough* I'm going to site yet more scripture from Romans, this time from chapter 5 verses 6-8:
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

We don't have the strength, faith, or general goodness that it requires to get into Heaven on our own; it's impossible. But Jesus Christ died for us, bridging the gap between us and God. It can be considered honorable to die for a man who has lived a good life, and has done good to everyone he encounters. And it happens occasionally. But Jesus died for us while we were still sinners. He had no reason to do this, except due to His love for each of us as an individual.

And for any of you who think that there is no support for Christianity, I dare you to read Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. At the time that he wrote it, he was trying to disprove Christianity. But he soon realized that, through trying to find the loopholes in it, it simply made much more sense for Christianity (and thus God, Jesus, and all the teachings of the Bible) to exist. It's kinda a difficult read, but I dare all of you to read it. But your probably too scared to do so, because you'll probably prove yourself wrong when you read it.

Stflook, as much as I like talking to you, you made a big mistake with this post. And I would be absolutely terrifically happy if someone were to PM me asking me more about my beliefs, so please feel free to do so.

God bless,
--PhirePhreak

[PhirePhreak]

Ooh, another thing. Stflook, the reason that Christianity has been bashed so much is because, as you yourself said, it is different. It is true. Truth hurts. People don't like it when they're being told that they can no longer live the way that they do. And that's why many of you will no longer like me; either your jealous because I have something you don't, or you're mad because I'm saying that you can't keep living like there is no God, because there is. I've had several very personal encounters with the power of God, and nothing will ever be able to erase those memories. I can't find the exact reference at the moment, but the Bible says that the world will reject it's teachings. Also, the world will reject those who are not of this world, ie, those who have recieved the gift of salvation. So, maybe that explains why I'm such a reject...

Again, someone please reassure me that I'm not alone, or flame me for this. I'd be honored to be flamed for standing up for my beliefs.

God bless,
--PhirePhreak

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post464280) by PhirePhreak
Ooh, another thing. Stflook, the reason that Christianity has been bashed so much is because, as you yourself said, it is different. It is true. Truth hurts. People don't like it when they're being told that they can no longer live the way that they do. And that's why many of you will no longer like me; either your jealous because I have something you don't, or you're mad because I'm saying that you can't keep living like there is no God, because there is.


PhirePhreak> If the Christianity's teachings were considered the truth, then how come various popes waged war in the name of god? How come those tens of thousands of good christians who knew the truth of "God's words" went against those directions and attacked Islam (what was then under Turkish control)? They killed thousands of people in nothing more than a political struggle.
I personally believe that religion is a personal thing, and if it works for you great, but don't enforce your beliefs on others.

I've had several very personal encounters with the power of God, and nothing will ever be able to erase those memories. I can't find the exact reference at the moment, but the Bible says that the world will reject it's teachings. Also, the world will reject those who are not of this world, ie, those who have recieved the gift of salvation. So, maybe that explains why I'm such a reject...

Again, someone please reassure me that I'm not alone, or flame me for this. I'd be honored to be flamed for standing up for my beliefs.

I think anyone who would flame you for believing something is very silly, but someone could very well question those beliefs. Personally the blind faith crap never really did anything for me. I question my beliefs all the time, and I know the answers to questions I'm likely to be asked. That knowledge brings me the stability and understanding that I believe what I believe for, what I consider, good reason.

If you care, I do not see 'god' in the traditional sense that many people do. I see 'god' more as the caretaker of the universe. God is that universal constant that keeps things moving, that provides us with a functioning universe. God doesn't particularly care if an asteroid smashes into earth killing the 6 billion people on it -- that's not god's job. God's job is to keep things running IMO.

Anyhow, before I get on a rant, I'll end this post. ;)

[gold eagle]

[WebCarnage] - I've heard this form of logic. You say you create your own form of heaven. Let's see now. That would make you a god, at least, in your own eyes. Someone here at work said something to that effect recently. "we just make our own reality and if we want to, we make our own god".

Sounds so advanced doesn't it? Yet the same thing has been done for thousands (millions) of years in history by many peoples. This god making business has been around for a very long time indeed.

Bottom line synopsis - Believe in yourself and be your own god, or build one out of some wood or metal (or even a career, lifestyle etc) or believe in a God you don't see.

All three choices require equal faith. Where you put it depends on you.

stflook - post those pix ;) Been approached by many religions actually.

redsdemon - I think men and women can have equal respect for each other (and still fit God into the picture.. Or not) it simply requires effort. It was deep.

I don't think stflook should be discouraged from asking questions about what he believes.

chsh - I disagree. If an asteroid smashed into us by your own definition God would be concerned at the very least by why it went awry.

[gold eagle]

One other thing. Science can be trusted 100%? What nonsense, Science changes it's view with each new revision of observation. Just look at the dinosaur aging thing, it must have changed for the various ages and times 20 times in my life alone. I trust no scientist.

[rcgreen]

One observation I have made.
Many people are very touchy and defensive
whenever religion is discussed.
They retreat into the old slogan,
"don't push your beliefs on others", but
this is not possible or desirable.

It is an inescapable concept. We need ideas
that give some order to our thoughts,
guidance in personal ethics and
public policy.

If it isn't religion, some other ideology will
be there trying to win our allegiance,
explain the mysteries, and form the basis
for government.

It is only when people resort to violence
that they cross the line, and ordinary
discussion and peaceful persuasion
become impossible.

When anyone has a monopoly of power,
they are tempted to suppress alternative
philosophies by law.

For example, every political and ideological
faction in a nation wants to capture control
of the public education establishment.
They want to be the ones who decide
what is taught as "TRUTH".

This is why all of my children were educated
at home.
:cool:

[PhirePhreak]

Hmm... I'm told not to press my beliefs on others, yet I'm only responding to the original thread started by stflook, who was pressing his belief on others by making fun of my religion... interesting.

Has no one noticed that every religion has its fanatics? Christianity had the "Holy Wars". Islam has terrorists. These are the stereotypical ones. But Christianity has just as many terrorists as Islam... Just because a particular person or group of people happen to belong to a certain religion, it doesn't mean that the religion is defined by what they do.

Oh, and by the way, if any of you had the experiences with God that I have had, you'd be a pretty firm believer as well... And I must confess that I'm always questioning my faith. But every time I pose a question, it is answered in the affirmative. I truly think that the only way to have a strong faith is to question it. If it stands up to the questioning and doubts, then your beliefs are mostly likely dead on. That's always been my experience.

And I know that eventually someone from the IRC or elsewhere will point out that I'm not exactly living a Christian life. But I have an answer. And this answer has been used for almost two thousand years:
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. --Philippians 3:12-14

And if you'd like to pose a question of my faith, please PM it to me, as I rarely take the time to look through every single post. And I can promise you that I will be able to answer it or at least find an answer somewhere.

God bless,
--PhirePhreak

[gold eagle]

rcgreen - makes some sense, some ideology will be up for discussion if not religion.
PhirePhreak - don't give up yet - you're making some good points.
Stflook - are you still here?
This thread is interesting. Let's keep it so and not, well, - you know.

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post464640) by gold eagle
chsh - I disagree. If an asteroid smashed into us by your own definition God would be concerned at the very least by why it went awry.

Ahh, that's where you took my meaning wrong. If the ateroid smashed into us, 'god' would probably not care except in that the asteroid did what it should.

One other thing. Science can be trusted 100%? What nonsense, Science changes it's view with each new revision of observation. Just look at the dinosaur aging thing, it must have changed for the various ages and times 20 times in my life alone. I trust no scientist.

Gold eagle, good point, excepting that I believe that the point of what was said was the method, rather than the result. I see religion as a way to self-justify your beliefs; a method by which you can organise your ethics and morals into something that is sensible to you -- a way to explain the observable universe, to an extent. What is science but the attempt by some to explain the observable universe?

Originally posted by rcgreen:
If it isn't religion, some other ideology will be there trying to win our allegiance, explain the mysteries, and form the basis for government.

What exactly does religion do towards explaining the mysteries?

Originally posted by PhirePhreak:
Has no one noticed that every religion has its fanatics? Christianity had the "Holy Wars". Islam has terrorists. These are the stereotypical ones. But Christianity has just as many terrorists as Islam... Just because a particular person or group of people happen to belong to a certain religion, it doesn't mean that the religion is defined by what they do.
We're not talking a few thousand people here, we're talking a consistent group of tens of thousands of people that partook of the crusades, the spanish inquisition, etc..


Hmm... I'm told not to press my beliefs on others, yet I'm only responding to the original thread started by stflook, who was pressing his belief on others by making fun of my religion... interesting.

One, I never said you were pressing your beliefs, just to beware of it. Two, stating your opinion about something isn't 'pressing your beliefs'. If stflook thinks it's amusing (as bad as it may be to say it), I think he has every right to.

[Alcatraz]

chsh

We're not talking a few thousand people here, we're talking a consistent group of tens of thousands of people that partook of the crusades, the spanish inquisition, etc..

People follow leaders. Look how many followed Hitler in World War II. I doubt all those thousands believed in what they were doing, and if they did, I don't think they realized it. And even if that, I don't think they thought they had much choice.

PhirePhreak

I've had several very personal encounters with the power of God, and nothing will ever be able to erase those memories.

Somethings can't be understood until they happen to you. Even then, you have to be aware they are happening, and then it's not always something you'd like to try to explain. I didn't really need to reply to that, just wanted to say I know what you mean.

Dr Toker

There is no such thing as a holy war.I don't care who is fighting it. When Jesus came for us, he said to turn the other cheek.

I totally agree! But these things happen, and then the religion is blamed for the actions of those who disgraced it. If you don't want to like something, as many people choose to dislike Christianity and such, its easy to sieze an example like the crusades and say, "This is Christianity." Well it's not, and the people who say that are just hiding behind an illusion.

[PhirePhreak]

Interesting... people aruge with me but not with Alcatraz... cool! And Alcatraz: rock on. You're doing a great job... I think so at least.

God bless,
--PhirePhreak

[gold eagle]

chsh - I think we can agree then on what science is. You put that well.
I did get your meaning on the asteroid thing (we've all watched too many movies here.. heheh) but still disagree on God caring. I say He does care.
Alcatraz - good post.

[gold eagle]

chsh - I think we can agree then on what science is. You put that well.
I did get your meaning on the asteroid thing (we've all watched too many movies here.. heheh) but still disagree on God caring. I say He does care.
Alcatraz - good post

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post464765) by Alcatraz
People follow leaders. Look how many followed Hitler in World War II. I doubt all those thousands believed in what they were doing, and if they did, I don't think they realized it. And even if that, I don't think they thought they had much choice.

Very true, however allowing the desire to follow a leader to override your ethics, morals, and beliefs is a very bad thing. What religion has said that it's ok to kill some people? I don't recall those teachings anywhere, but then again, I haven't experienced all of the world's religions...

I totally agree! But these things happen, and then the religion is blamed for the actions of those who disgraced it. If you don't want to like something, as many people choose to dislike Christianity and such, its easy to sieze an example like the crusades and say, "This is Christianity." Well it's not, and the people who say that are just hiding behind an illusion.

That's terribly amusing. You're saying that a group of 'officials' of a religion condoning a war as long as it's in the 'name of all that's good and pure' () doesn't count as a holy war and should not be held against said religion?

I'm sorry, I fundamentally disagree with that argument. Christianity as a whole endorsed the crusades. If it were simply a small group of people speaking for a whole religion (as many terrorists are) then maybe I could see your point. Unfortunately in Christianity's case, a very large majority were in favour of 'retaking the birthplace of Christ' by force.

I do agree that people who simply say "This is christianity" and point out the Crusades, the Inquisition, WW II, etc., are all very silly, because there is more to every religion than just that. Rather unfortunately christianity created an environment where those who sought political power were able to obtain it quite easily, and this lead to a lot of bloodshed. I'm certain that Christianity was responsible for the 'dark ages', and indeed the Catholic church was responsible for stunting scientific achievement for many hundreds of years.
It became all too easy for those in power to say "in the name of god, we should vanquish the evil enemy <insert name here>". Look at Middle Ages Europe; Wars were a daily occurance, and most, if not all, had the full support of the churches.

Christianity did not order the crusades to happen, men did. The religion was simply there as justification, and in my view, when people let religion be their justification for war, they are already lost.

Face it: Christianity has been used as the justification for many horrific acts, and when someone looks at the bad that's gone on in the name of Christianity, it's quite easy to see that it's all bad. I'm sure after September 11th quite a few people felt the same about Muslims. I've heard many people who were normally sane, intelligent people break down and become racist bigoted Anti-Muslims since 09/11, and it pains me to see people blame a religion where it's obvious a small group was to blame.

[i]Originally Posted by PhirePhreak:
Interesting... people aruge with me but not with Alcatraz...
I didn't disagree with what he said until now. Even now, I don't fundamentally disagree with what he's saying, I'm just clarifying things a bit...

[stflook]

PhirePhreak: Exactly why did I make a big mistake by starting this thread? This is the cosmos forum, where we can debate things such as this. I started this thread exactly so we could debate this. I never made fun of Christianity. In fact, I even said that it's good in many ways. I never tried to force my beliefs on you, either. I just wanted to debate the issue. I wanted to see if somebody could prove me wrong. Who knows? Maybe I AM wrong. Debating is one of the ways I learn best. I'll listen to you with an open mind, but I expect you to show me the same respect.

[Alcatraz]

chsh

Very true, however allowing the desire to follow a leader to override your ethics, morals, and beliefs is a very bad thing. What religion has said that it's ok to kill some people? I don't recall those teachings anywhere, but then again, I haven't experienced all of the world's religions...

Christianity doesn't say it's OK to kill someone. The leaders did. I know that, in principle, the soldiers shouldn't have followed their orders. But we've never been in their shoes, so we can't say how hard it might be to pass up a job with decent money and risk being called a traitor and possible shot if we got caught. Besides, EVERYone is doing it...

That's terribly amusing. You're saying that a group of 'officials' of a religion condoning a war as long as it's in the 'name of all that's good and pure' ([insert religion here]) doesn't count as a holy war and should not be held against said religion?

Yep. That is exactly what I said. People are not holy, and thus, can't decide what is. These officials got to power and don't want to give it up so they're starting a war in the 'name of all that's good and pure.' Corrupt officials don't represent the people. And they definitely don't represent a religion. I mean, does bin Laden represent Islam?

[stflook]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post465310) by chsh



Christianity as a whole endorsed the crusades. If it were simply a small group of people speaking for a whole religion (as many terrorists are) then maybe I could see your point. Unfortunately in Christianity's case, a very large majority were in favour of 'retaking the birthplace of Christ' by force.







I do agree that people who simply say "This is christianity" and point out the Crusades, the Inquisition, WW II, etc., are all very silly, because there is more to every religion than just that. Rather unfortunately christianity created an environment where those who sought political power were able to obtain it quite easily, and this lead to a lot of bloodshed. I'm certain that Christianity was responsible for the 'dark ages', and indeed the Catholic church was responsible for stunting scientific achievement for many hundreds of years.



It became all too easy for those in power to say "in the name of god, we should vanquish the evil enemy <insert name here>". Look at Middle Ages Europe; Wars were a daily occurance, and most, if not all, had the full support of the churches.







Christianity did not order the crusades to happen, men did. The religion was simply there as justification, and in my view, when people let religion be their justification for war, they are already lost.







Face it: Christianity has been used as the justification for many horrific acts, and when someone looks at the bad that's gone on in the name of Christianity, it's quite easy to see that it's all bad. I'm sure after September 11th quite a few people felt the same about Muslims. I've heard many people who were normally sane, intelligent people break down and become racist bigoted Anti-Muslims since 09/11, and it pains me to see people blame a religion where it's obvious a small group was to blame.






This is one of the fundamentals of my argument. I don't believe that Chrisitanity is bad until people take it so far as commit acts of mass murder, as has been done all too many times in the past. Even then, I don't believe that Chrisitanity in itself is bad. I just feel that people have used it as a justification for inhuman acts too many times. Am I saying that it's bad to be a Chrisitan? Certainly not. However, more wars have been fought in the name of Christianity that all other religions combined. Part of this is due to the fact that there are many ways to interpret the Bible. People would consider one value to be more important than another, such as the value of proselytation over the value of peace, which would often result in a war. That was the root of the Spanish Inquisition. The King and Queen of Spain decided that they would torture and kill all people who wouldn't accept Roman Catholic views. The Crusades were the same way. Did those people not realize that the land they were taking away from those people was the holy land for their religion as well? If they did, then that just proves my point. They believed that proselytation was more important than peace, and thus felt that they were superior to the natives of the land, and had the right to kill them just because they didn't like the fact that they were following some other religion in the Chrisitan "holy land", even though it was their holy land as well. Luckily, modern Chrisitans no longer do that. Most have a better grasp of what the Bible teaches, and accept people's right to believe in other religions.

Has anybody ever noticed that Jews have been beat-on in just about every "holy war"? I have never heard about Jews starting any wars, or doing anything violent for that matter. They have been abused over and over again throughout history, yet they never strike back. I have never heard of any Jewish fanatical group causing terror or violence. I have never heard of Judaism being forced on other cultures, like Christians do with their mission work. They just seem to practice their beliefs, and let the rest of the world do what it wills. Judaism is the most peaceable religion I can think of. Hinduism seems to be among the most peaceable, too. You can believe in whatever religion you want, but there are lessons to be learned from how they practice their beliefs.

[rcgreen]

The Turks had penetrated far enough into
Europe that they laid siege to the city of
Vienna. The crusades were really for the strategic
defense of Europe. Naturally, any major campaign
like that would need the approval of the Pope.

People didn't have as well developed a concept
of church-state separation then. The Spanish
Inquisition was probably the last major example
of outrageous religious intolerance in the christian
west, and I think it was because Spain had been
(much like the balkans), a contested border between
the islamic and christian civilizations. People were afraid,
and fear is probably the most potent motivator for
people to commit atrocities.
:cool:

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post462059) by Alcatraz


OK, this argument won't help me, but I've always been of the opinion that science requires that something come from something. If nothing was there in the first place, then what caused the big bang?

Either 'God' did, or he/she didn't and something else did, because 'God' isn't there...that's about all I can offer there, although I can offer a timeline from 10^-32 seconds (theoretically, of course) after whatever happened happened, due to the research (actually trying to find out) of cosmologists.

[QUOTE]I have the same hopes as you as well, family, friends, future, success, happiness...all that. But I also have hope in God. I mean, what do you think will happen to you when you die?[QUOTE]

Hopefully, I'll fertilize some grass, perhaps to be eaten by some herbivorous species, which may be killed and eaten by an expecting mother, who gives birth to another of her particular species...

A fault of the human mind is to look 'beyond' to find 'meaning' and 'purpose' to their lives, as if to attempt to excuse themselves from just plain LIVING. Look closer, and you'll find plenty to live for, regardless of 'God' or the 'Big Bang', etc.

One can find religion in Tolkien's writings, for instance, if one didn't know any better or were so inclined...but those writings, at least, have been written as fiction intentionally. But still there are some who adopt it as 'reality'...I don't see any difference between that and any other written religion, aside from longevity and number of followers.

Ouroboros

[Alcatraz]

Has anybody ever noticed that Jews have been beat-on in just about every "holy war"? I have never heard about Jews starting any wars, or doing anything violent for that matter. They have been abused over and over again throughout history, yet they never strike back. I have never heard of any Jewish fanatical group causing terror or violence. I have never heard of Judaism being forced on other cultures, like Christians do with their mission work. They just seem to practice their beliefs, and let the rest of the world do what it wills. Judaism is the most peaceable religion I can think of.

You're also forgetting that Christians have been persecuted like hell. Still, today, in many places, they're being abused, scoffed at, and sometimes killed. Particularly in Africa and some Asian places. And in Israel, (which is predominantly Jewish, right?) they have been fighting with the Palestinians. And they're also accusing the Palestinians of terrorism, which has been commited, but think...they (with western help) kicked out the Palestinians. Rejected diplomatic claims, and took more land when the Palestinians fought back. The Israelis haven't exactly been the nicest people. And saying that all Jews go on their way without fighting, or are successful (I've heard that a lot) is like saying all Christians like Holy Wars.

A fault of the human mind is to look 'beyond' to find 'meaning' and 'purpose' to their lives, as if to attempt to excuse themselves from just plain LIVING. Look closer, and you'll find plenty to live for, regardless of 'God' or the 'Big Bang', etc.

It's not a fault. Humans need purpose. Everything we do is done for a purpose. Sex and eating are for a purpose. And we have meanings for those. To reproduce and avoid starvation, in this case. And searching for a meaning in God is natural because we don't really have a meaning for him...

One can find religion in Tolkien's writings, for instance, if one didn't know any better or were so inclined...

I think Tolkien was a Christian...he hung out with C.S. Lewis a lot, didn't he? Kind of unrelated to your post, but I thought I'd point that out.


stflook: It's about time I thank you for this thread. (I forgot to sign my name on those APs...) But really, this thread has seen some of best debates AO has to offer.

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post466087) by Alcatraz

It's not a fault. Humans need purpose. Everything we do is done for a purpose. Sex and eating are for a purpose. And we have meanings for those. To reproduce and avoid starvation, in this case. And searching for a meaning in God is natural because we don't really have a meaning for him...

I didn't make myself clear...I was more focusing on the apparent need to look 'beyond', when many of the reasons and meanings and insights on life exist all around us, regardless of beliefs...

Ouroboros

And yes, Tolkien was a devout Christian...just had a good objective viewpoint about the fundamentals of religion itself...

O

[Alcatraz]

I didn't make myself clear...I was more focusing on the apparent need to look 'beyond', when many of the reasons and meanings and insights on life exist all around us, regardless of beliefs...

Ouroboros

And yes, Tolkien was a devout Christian...just had a good objective viewpoint about the fundamentals of religion itself...

We don't NEED to look beyond...it's just kind of...nice to.

I agree with Tolkien, I think, after all, objectivity is a very good thing. And personally, I've stripped down my personal religious beliefs to a very small, practical amount. I think. I guess I really can't be sure. But I'm just rambling. Whatever.

[stflook]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post466087) by Alcatraz


stflook: It's about time I thank you for this thread. (I forgot to sign my name on those APs...) But really, this thread has seen some of best debates AO has to offer.



This kind of debate is exactly what I wanted. I really oughta thank you for being so active in it. I was waiting for somebody as opinionated as PhirePhreak to join in, but I was hoping he wouldn't start accusing me of forcing my beliefs on him and such. Maybe when he cools down, we can debate it without him being so aggressive about it.


Also, I never said that all Jews are nonviolent. I said that Judiasm as a whole has a comparitively nonviolent history. Face it, throughout history, Judiasm has taken a lot more than it has dished out.




I need to come up with another hot topic for debate... Any ideas?

[PhirePhreak]

Stflook: I'm sorry for making that accusation. I was wrong. And I'm sorry also that I don't have any ideas for more debates... yet... I'm sure something will come to me. Another thing: don't hate me cause I'm beautiful... okay, just kidding. But seriously, thank you for starting this thread. Having so many peope questioning my faith has made me question it. And by questioning it, I proved to myself yet again that Christianity is the only logical way. And because of that realization, I've become a stronger Christian, and drawn closer to God.

the rest of you:
Since the Crusades have been a pretty hot topic, I'm going to take my precious time to address that. The Crusades were not caused by Christianity, nor were they based on Christian beliefs. Christianity was merely the "honorable" excuse given for it. The same thing happened with Spain. They explorered for three basic reasons: God, Gold, and Glory. But, yet again, God was merely an excuse to use whatever means might be necessary to get the gold and glory. Of course they wanted gold, or boullion, because they would become very rich with it (which they did). Glory is another given. Yet anyone familiar with the Christian faith knows that it preaches humility over and over again. So, the Spanish just threw God in there as a justification. The same happened with Americans settling North America. They believed in something called "Manifest Destiny", which basically says that Americans were destined by God to settle all accross the continent. They justified mistreatment of Indians, Mexicans, and anyone else who got in their way by saying that it was God's will.

If I wanted to, I could go find many more instances that Christianity has been used as the excuse for something. But just because it's a lame excuse for inexcusable actions does not mean that the faith and principles of Christianity that have been abused are wrong. If I went out killing people in the name of Democracy, would that make Democracy wrong? The people mentioned above who used Christianity as an excuse were merely hypocrites. Christianity teaches "Do not kill" and "Love your neighbor as yourself", yet they killed, and mistreated people based on their race.

In conclusion, hypocritical Christianity IS wrong, but the true Christianity, based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, is the only true answer.

Earlier I challenged everyone to read "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. I've read it before, but I started to read it again today. It has an amazing amount of information... all factual. And this debate even gave me the courage and ferocity to read it in school... public high school... I never would have done that a week ago. Oh yeah, and it's an obnoxiously large book... good for hitting people if they freak out about you reading it ;)

Well, so ends another one of my posts.

God bless,
--PhirePhreak

[gold eagle]

Stflook if you're looking for a new topic and want to stay with religions, how about picking another one and starting a new thread. AOers are probably many religions and non religious so you have a wide choice.

[GoldenHammer]

What about the bible saying he made Adam, and Eve being made from his rib? With this in mind, we have all but proven the theory of evolution from monkeys. Another instance where the bible is proven wrong.

[PhirePhreak]

One problem little buddy... evolution says that it was all pretty much an accident. God purposefully create Eve from Adam's rib. Yet another instance where the Bible is not wrong. Sorry to shoot your hopes down.

--PhirePhreak

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post465473) by Alcatraz
Christianity doesn't say it's OK to kill someone. The leaders did. I know that, in principle, the soldiers shouldn't have followed their orders. But we've never been in their shoes, so we can't say how hard it might be to pass up a job with decent money and risk being called a traitor and possible shot if we got caught. Besides, EVERYone is doing it...

If there's one thing that I think shows someone is a weak-minded fool, it's giving into peer pressure. This only furthers what I said earlier about christianity being used as a tool to gain power, and little more.

Yep. That is exactly what I said. People are not holy, and thus, can't decide what is. These officials got to power and don't want to give it up so they're starting a war in the 'name of all that's good and pure.' Corrupt officials don't represent the people. And they definitely don't represent a religion. I mean, does bin Laden represent Islam?

People should still know right from wrong. I don't let them off the hook for following along and doing something they don't like.

As for bin Laden representing Islam, I don't believe so, but there are others who do.

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post466087) by Alcatraz
It's not a fault. Humans need purpose. Everything we do is done for a purpose. Sex and eating are for a purpose. And we have meanings for those. To reproduce and avoid starvation, in this case. And searching for a meaning in God is natural because we don't really have a meaning for him...

Yes, however those are material things. God is not a material thing, he is a philosophical thing. IMO, MAN *creates* GOD (not vice versa) as a sort of mystical catch-all. We can just attribute it to the wonders of GOD why something happened that isn't readily apparent.

[preacherman481]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post468429) by chsh


Yes, however those are material things. God is not a material thing, he is a philosophical thing. IMO, MAN *creates* GOD (not vice versa) as a sort of mystical catch-all. We can just attribute it to the wonders of GOD why something happened that isn't readily apparent.

Yes chsh, but also consider this. Does there not seem to be something inside humans that urges them on to seek something greater than themselves? Can't this need to make sense of our world be a proof of the existence of a Creator? Saint Augustine once said, "O God you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you." I submit that God has "hardwired" us for spirituality. We may express it in different ways (I'm not saying I believe all religions are true) but this spiritual hunger inside of us is just as real as any physical desire. If we don't eat or drink we die physically. If we don't have a relationship with God we're dead spiritually. Both are real.

[SarinMage]

there is no one creator, it was all created in an instant, when existence began. NO sentient being involved, mo mystilal powers of the great, just strange things that we can only discripe as work of gods... THings that must have happened at the creation of all are most likly in-comprhendable by our mind,

[stflook]

People should still know right from wrong. I don't let them off the hook for following along and doing something they don't like.





You must understand that all people depend on a leader of some kind to determine right and wrong for them. For most people, it's their parents who teach this to them as infants.


throwing cookie = spanking





Some people, however, need to be reminded of what's socially considered "right" or "wrong" their whole lives, and depend on authorities, such as police, the pissed-off psycho lady down the road, or religious authority figures to tell them.


questioning dude in funny robe = eternal damnation


killing person of different culture = eternal bliss








Let us also not forget that while a lone person can be quite smart, a society as a whole tends to be hot-headed, panicky, gullible, and sometimes even plain stupid. Thus, when you have a religious authority figure who everybody pictures as wiser and smarter than them, they tend to listen without question, especially when disobedience or second-guessing can (so they say) land you in Hell forever. When a person wields this much pseudopower, the world is at their feet. All they have to do is give the order, and it is done. The problem is, people don't realize that it's only PSEUDOpower. They don't stop to think, "Am I going to feel burn ouchie for long time if I disobey crazy robed guy's ridiculous, violent bidding?". Many people are too willing to believe in something and follow its laws if it claims there are unimaginible consequences if you don't. Catholicism took this, and capitalized on it. They led wars. They extorted. They tortured. It was no longer about goodness and peace. Christ was now their way of getting whatever they wanted. They took the power of God as an excuse to rewrite the rules on what was right and wrong. And people believed it.

[preacherman481]

Stflook, thanks for your very well thought out views. Yes, people do tend to give unquestioning allegiance to human figures. Cults thrive on finding people who don't want to take responsibility for their lives and their actions. Many people find it easier to be told what to do rather than think for themselves. This is a very true criticism of Christianity and probably every other religion. The only Person who should receive our unquestioning obedience is God (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). The Bible is very honest when it comes to detailing the failings of God's appointed human leaders. As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ himself (God in the flesh) did not give unquestioning obedience to the religious leaders of his day. Read through the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). Jesus has some very unflattering things to say about religious leaders. Therefore, everything that a religious leader or minister says should be judged by the standard of God's revealed Word, the Bible. We should follow human leaders only as they follow Jesus Christ.

[PhirePhreak]

Greetz.
From reading this thread a few times, I've gathered that everyone wants factual evidence to support their beliefs... am I right in that assumption? Assuming that I am, I'm going to consider starting a new thread to prove Christianity beyond a doubt. But only if I feel that it won't be a waste of time, i.e., you'll actually visit it. Let me know what you think, and I'll get started on maybe not the World's Longest Thread, but most likely the World's Longest Post. And for anyone who shares my views on God, please PM me anything you think should be included.

Thank you for your attention (hey, you're reading this, right?)
God bless,
--PhirePhreak

[stflook]

You *could* do that, or you could just say what you have to say here. We already have an ongoing debate on Christianity right here. Unless this post is going to be *that* huge, I would just keep it in this thread. Either way, though, I'm always ready for a debate.

[PhirePhreak]

Trust me. It's gonna be big. Probably won't be up until Sunday nite or Monday, either. But I'm going to get started with the draft in a few minutes. It's gonna be very good :)

God bless,
--PhirePhreak

[gold eagle]

Preacherman - good reasoning there. I'm going to have to think about your last few posts.

stflook - keep on questioning man - it's what makes us alive.

I think I need to say a few things here.

first of all I'm not anti-God. I said I believe in God.

second I'm not anti religious. I respect others faiths, especially if they demonstrate the most postive elements of what it is they say they believe.

Now here is the crux - ppl that espouse a view but take a tiny part of their holy books and turn it into a crusade, jihad, riding the tiger, cleansing, pogrom, genocide etc.

If you follow a faith, fine, show us the best of it. Stop attacking others with the worst of it.
I have borne the brunt of several faiths, western, eastern and african from those whom we would call "devilish" or something to that effect. I think the we make our own god crap has had enough press. How about showing everyone WHY your faith is so good. So, live it and show it, then talk it.

Whew.
I feel better. :D

[chsh]

Prepare for a massive me-replying-to-everyone post...

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post468432) by preacherman481
Yes chsh, but also consider this. Does there not seem to be something inside humans that urges them on to seek something greater than themselves?

Yes.

Can't this need to make sense of our world be a proof of the existence of a Creator?

No, because the need exists even in those of us who are comfortable knowing we will become worm food at then end of our lives. It's part of us as a species, not just those people who believe in a god. Your line of thought only follows if we can definitively prove that we were 'created' by some kind of sentient being, which may very well be the case, however we don't have much proof of that. Our best bet is evolution, which we know in essence works, because it's happened to mankind measurably over the last 1000 years.

Saint Augustine once said, "O God you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you." I submit that God has "hardwired" us for spirituality.

If this was the case, there would be no atheists.

We may express it in different ways (I'm not saying I believe all religions are true)

Ahh, but see, there's the sticky part. Religion isn't fact, it's fiction, so to speak. It is entirely philosophical, therefore there is are no true or false religions.

but this spiritual hunger inside of us is just as real as any physical desire. If we don't eat or drink we die physically. If we don't have a relationship with God we're dead spiritually. Both are real.

The spiritual hunger is not in everybody though, which would tend to disagree with your line of thought. Who are you to say that if one doesn't have a relationship with some kind of deity that they're 'dead' spiritually. I disagree with that statement fundamentally, because it assumes your point of view is right, and that of say, an atheist, is wrong. That is both arrogant and stupid of you to say.

Originally posted by stflook:
You must understand that all people depend on a leader of some kind to determine right and wrong for them. For most people, it's their parents who teach this to them as infants.
throwing cookie = spanking

I disagree. Your example is good, though you can see it many different ways depending on the situation. That variation from person to person is that core essence of your understanding of right/wrong. A person who believes it's good to throw cookies might see that as:

throwing cookie + getting caught = spanking

That fundamental thing in all of us is what allows us to act in a fashion we deem correct.

Some people, however, need to be reminded of what's socially considered "right" or "wrong" their whole lives, and depend on authorities, such as police, the pissed-off psycho lady down the road, or religious authority figures to tell them.
questioning dude in funny robe = eternal damnation
killing person of different culture = eternal bliss

Right, the dude in the funny robe is just another person (my grandfather is an Anglican Priest), not someone who is speaking for a god.

Let us also not forget that while a lone person can be quite smart, a society as a whole tends to be hot-headed, panicky, gullible, and sometimes even plain stupid.

The lowest common denominator. A mob is only as smart as its dumbest people. This is very true. Does that excuse someone for partaking in the situation? No. It's their choice to be there, doing that thing, they are perfectly capable of walking in the other direction.

Thus, when you have a religious authority figure who everybody pictures as wiser and smarter than them, they tend to listen without question, especially when disobedience or second-guessing can (so they say) land you in Hell forever. When a person wields this much pseudopower, the world is at their feet.

This even furthers my point earlier.

All they have to do is give the order, and it is done. The problem is, people don't realize that it's only PSEUDOpower. They don't stop to think, "Am I going to feel burn ouchie for long time if I disobey crazy robed guy's ridiculous, violent bidding?". Many people are too willing to believe in something and follow its laws if it claims there are unimaginible consequences if you don't.

Precisely what I was trying to get across.

Catholicism took this, and capitalized on it. They led wars. They extorted. They tortured. It was no longer about goodness and peace. Christ was now their way of getting whatever they wanted. They took the power of God as an excuse to rewrite the rules on what was right and wrong. And people believed it.

Very true. You have excellently laid out the point I was attempting to make. The church, and to a great extent the religion, simply became a vehicle for political power.

Originally posted by preacherman481:
The only Person who should receive our unquestioning obedience is God (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). The Bible is very honest when it comes to detailing the failings of God's appointed human leaders. As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ himself (God in the flesh) did not give unquestioning obedience to the religious leaders of his day. Read through the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). Jesus has some very unflattering things to say about religious leaders. Therefore, everything that a religious leader or minister says should be judged by the standard of God's revealed Word, the Bible. We should follow human leaders only as they follow Jesus Christ.

The bible is very amusing then, since the bible itself has large parts written by "God's appointed human leaders". The entire thing was manufactured by a human, not god himself. I am naturally mistrusting of humans I don't know, as I think many people are. Why should I believe what somebody wrote a couple thousand years ago?

Originally posted by gold eagle:
I respect others faiths, especially if they demonstrate the most postive elements of what it is they say they believe.

Then you are two faced. If you had simply said "I respect others faiths", I wouldn't think so, but your addition is what disturbs me. In essence you are saying that if you think it's good, then you'll respect it?

Personally, I don't care if you respect my faith or not, it's mine, not yours.

Now here is the crux - ppl that espouse a view but take a tiny part of their holy books and turn it into a crusade, jihad, riding the tiger, cleansing, pogrom, genocide etc.

If you follow a faith, fine, show us the best of it. Stop attacking others with the worst of it.

I couldn't agree more...

I think the we make our own god crap has had enough press. How about showing everyone WHY your faith is so good. So, live it and show it, then talk it.

Nobody should have to prove WHY their faith is so good. Faith and religion are very very personal things, IMO. I respect others' religious choices, and I would expect the same from them.

[preacherman481]

/Quote from csch/
No, because the need exists even in those of us who are comfortable knowing we will become worm food at then end of our lives. It's part of us as a species, not just those people who believe in a god. Your line of thought only follows if we can definitively prove that we were 'created' by some kind of sentient being, which may very well be the case, however we don't have much proof of that. Our best bet is evolution, which we know in essence works, because it's happened to mankind measurably over the last 1000 years. /Quote from csch/

Exactly. That's my point. This need is built into everyone. God put it there. People cannot escape being spiritual. What is a drug addict? Or any kind of addict for that matter? Someone who is trying to fill an inner spiritual thirst for God in a way that can never meet the need. Whether we realize it or not, we're thirsty for God. We may use food, sex, or anything else to try to cover up this need, but it doesn't work.



/Quote from cssh/ If this was the case, there would be no atheists./quote from csch/

I disagree with you. God has allowed us free will. We can choose to deny our God-given hunger and try to fill it in other ways. The Bible call this idolatry. Putting another thing or person in God's place. God's gift of free will allows people to choose to be atheist. A love that can't be rejected is not love.





/quote from csch/The spiritual hunger is not in everybody though, which would tend to disagree with your line of thought. Who are you to say that if one doesn't have a relationship with some kind of deity that they're 'dead' spiritually. I disagree with that statement fundamentally, because it assumes your point of view is right, and that of say, an atheist, is wrong. That is both arrogant and stupid of you to say./quote from csch/

I didn't say people without God are spiritually dead, the Bible says that: Ephesians 2:1-4
"You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air [Satan], the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh , following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even though we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-- by grace you have been saved."

And also, I think I am right. If I didn't believe this I wouldn't say it. If I say, "I believe 2+2=4," does that make me arrogant? If some says, "I think 2+2=5," am I arrogant to disagree with them? The difference in this case is that we're talking about things that can't be verified with the senses instead of mathematical equations.



/quote from csch/The bible is very amusing then, since the bible itself has large parts written by "God's appointed human leaders". The entire thing was manufactured by a human, not god himself. I am naturally mistrusting of humans I don't know, as I think many people are. Why should I believe what somebody wrote a couple thousand years ago?/quote from csch/

I didn't say human leaders didn't write the Bible. God worked through them and used them to do it. God works through us in spite of our faults and sins. I just meant that human leaders are not infallible. In other words, don't believe what someone just because they have a title or wear a robe. As to why you should believe the Bible, I can't prove that it's true. As a matter of fact, I don't believe in Jesus Christ because of the Bible, I believe in the Bible because of Jesus Christ. Think about that. I know by faith that Jesus is real. And if he is real, then his word is true. When a person comes to know Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit comes and takes up residence in his or her body. The Holy Spirit enlightens the truths of the Bible and confirms them to the believer. The Apostle Paul says in I Corinthian 2:12-13: "Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God . And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual." The only way to believe the Bible is through the assistance of God's Spirit.

I hope you won't take this as a personal attack on you. It's not. I just want to make sure you understand where I'm coming from.

[gold eagle]

chsh wrote:

Then you are two faced. If you had simply said "I respect others faiths", I wouldn't think so, but your addition is what disturbs me. In essence you are saying that if you think it's good, then you'll respect it?

How irritating of you to suggest I'm two faced. If you read what you have quoted me on you will see I said I respect their faiths, ESPECIALLY if they demonstrate the best points of it etc.



Nobody should have to prove WHY their faith is so good. Faith and religion are very very personal things, IMO. I respect others' religious choices, and I would expect the same from them.

Ppl should have to if they are trying to convince others theirs is right. If they are not selling it then no, don't bother to prove anything. Then you say you don't care what I believe, SO? I didn't ask you to nor did I cast any aspersions on what you believe.

chsh your posts are beginning to take on an edge that suggests you know better than anyone else who has posted. You've pointed out "errors" in almost all the longer posts with your own "corrections". I hope this is not the case.

This forum has been fairly useful so far. You or I don't have all the answers and it is not useful to pick apart everyone else's posts

[uraloony]

No, because the need exists even in those of us who are comfortable knowing we will become worm food at then end of our lives. It's part of us as a species, not just those people who believe in a god. Your line of thought only follows if we can definitively prove that we were 'created' by some kind of sentient being, which may very well be the case, however we don't have much proof of that. Our best bet is evolution, which we know in essence works, because it's happened to mankind measurably over the last 1000 years.

Let me give you some food for thought. You say that the feelings are part of our species. But where did those feelings come from?


Ahh, but see, there's the sticky part. Religion isn't fact, it's fiction, so to speak. It is entirely philosophical, therefore there is are no true or false religions.

Can you prove that it is fiction?


The spiritual hunger is not in everybody though, which would tend to disagree with your line of thought. Who are you to say that if one doesn't have a relationship with some kind of deity that they're 'dead' spiritually. I disagree with that statement fundamentally, because it assumes your point of view is right, and that of say, an atheist, is wrong. That is both arrogant and stupid of you to say.

But it is inside everyone. If a person cannot fulfill his spiritual needs through God properly, he will go to another perverted source such as sex, drugs, material possessions, or some other source to "fullfill" his needs. However, this "fix" is temporary and will not last. The person is constantly searching for the right "fix", but never finds it unless he chooses God's way.


I disagree. Your example is good, though you can see it many different ways depending on the situation. That variation from person to person is that core essence of your understanding of right/wrong. A person who believes it's good to throw cookies might see that as:

throwing cookie + getting caught = spanking

That fundamental thing in all of us is what allows us to act in a fashion we deem correct.

Again, where have our morals come from. We can't have just evolved and somehoe chosen the right rules. If that was the case, then who is to tell me it is wrong to kill? No one. Because I have no leader and no morals. The place were we all get our morals from (like it or not) is the Bible. If you say "No I don't", you are wrong.


Right, the dude in the funny robe is just another person (my grandfather is an Anglican Priest), not someone who is speaking for a god.

The born-again Christian faith should not blindly follow the leader. The Bible talks about the Noble Bureans (they were Christians in that day.) They were called noble becase "they searched the scriptures daily to see if the things their leaders said were true."



The lowest common denominator. A mob is only as smart as its dumbest people. This is very true. Does that excuse someone for partaking in the situation? No. It's their choice to be there, doing that thing, they are perfectly capable of walking in the other direction.

I agree. We are not to follow things that disagree with the teachings of the Bible.


The bible is very amusing then, since the bible itself has large parts written by "God's appointed human leaders". The entire thing was manufactured by a human, not god himself. I am naturally mistrusting of humans I don't know, as I think many people are. Why should I believe what somebody wrote a couple thousand years ago?

2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

Then you are two faced. If you had simply said "I respect others faiths", I wouldn't think so, but your addition is what disturbs me. In essence you are saying that if you think it's good, then you'll respect it?

I disagree with that statment. What Jesus would want us to do is respect others. We can beleive their veiws are wrong, but we are still to love them in Christ, and hope that they will see the light.

Personally, I don't care if you respect my faith or not, it's mine, not yours.
Nobody should have to prove WHY their faith is so good. Faith and religion are very very personal things, IMO. I respect others' religious choices, and I would expect the same from them. [/B]

So what you are saying is leave me alone, I do not want to take part of this discussion. If you wish for us to respect your veiws, then we can't take any action to try to disprove your religion. Thats my whole point. I can respect a person, (and I do respect you), but I can't really respect some of their veiws.

[Alcatraz]

chsh

Very true. You have excellently laid out the point I was attempting to make. The church, and to a great extent the religion, simply became a vehicle for political power.

Exactly. People abuse anything to get power. But the mistake of others is to associate religion with political power. Religion has nothing to do with power! Why do people associate those two? And why do we have so many people in charge, where most of them don't belong?

In the Bible, I seem to recall Jesus saying that we'd all be servants in heaven. I thought about that and realized that'll be a very good thing. But I'm off topic I think. Anyway, I can't really think of anything to say.

PhirePhreak: Your new thread sounds like a good idea, but what will you be proving? That Christianity is the right religion or that God exists? Because those are dangerous grounds, it's my belief that proving God's existance will prove that he doesn't exist. (What a paradox).

Anyway, keep up the belief in whatever the hell you want, guys. I know I'd never want to follow something I didn't believe in. Ooh...I've got something to point out.

Sometimes, people join things like the crusades because they thought they were doing the right thing. Their leaders told them they were doing the right thing and what God wanted them to do, so they did it. As a child did you ever question if the words you were taught were the right ones? Maybe the color blue is really green! To a great extant, people accept what is told to them, and they usually do so unwittingly.

Finally, a hypothetical question for everyone. There is an unarmed stranger in front of you. You have a gun in your hands and nowhere to hide, and there are 20 skilled snipers aiming at you from various locations. If you do not kill the stranger in front of you, they'll kill you. What will you do?

[preacherman481]

I think I'll just let the snipers shoot me. I'm going to a better place.

[preacherman481]

See the signature on my posts to understand why I say that.

[Alcatraz]

Heh...yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of people who will say that, and some who will actually let that happen, you could very well be one of them. But I guess one can't really be sure until their life is on the line. Humans have an innate desire to remain living...

[rcgreen]

I am gratified to see a heated discussion of religion
without it getting angry or violent.

I have had a lot of intense debates on this stuff
and the only times I.ve been tempted to get
violent is when someone wants to short-circuit
the whole discussion by saying something
like "all religions are equally true",
or even worse "it doesn't matter what you believe".

It would be a slap in the face of every participant,
to tell them that the things they feel passionately
about are matters of no consequence.

My first principle in religious discussion is:

This is indeed a very important topic.
It is a shame that people in high places
neglect the debate of religion,
because everyone has a religion of some kind.

Every thing we do is motivated by our beliefs,
but too often these beliefs are hidden, even
from ourselves.

Having a debate like this helps us to know our own
selves, because it becomes harder to pretend
that we "don't have any beliefs" or that we
"don't care"
:cool:

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post469105) by preacherman481
Exactly. That's my point. This need is built into everyone. God put it there.

Only if you assume that a creator does indeed exist, and as I said, we have no evidence of that.

People cannot escape being spiritual. What is a drug addict? Or any kind of addict for that matter? Someone who is trying to fill an inner spiritual thirst for God in a way that can never meet the need. Whether we realize it or not, we're thirsty for God. We may use food, sex, or anything else to try to cover up this need, but it doesn't work.

No, we're not thirsty for god, we're thirsty to believe in something we feel will explain things we can't easily explain. They are two different things. I know very many atheists who lead very happy and fulfilling lives. Going by what you say, it would seem that that is impossible.

I disagree with you. God has allowed us free will. We can choose to deny our God-given hunger and try to fill it in other ways. The Bible call this idolatry. Putting another thing or person in God's place. God's gift of free will allows people to choose to be atheist. A love that can't be rejected is not love.

I suppose we should just agree to disagree. ;)

I didn't say people without God are spiritually dead, the Bible says that: Ephesians 2:1-4
"You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air [Satan], the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh , following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even though we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-- by grace you have been saved."

Can I draw your attention to something you wrote:
but this spiritual hunger inside of us is just as real as any physical desire. If we don't eat or drink we die physically. If we don't have a relationship with God we're dead spiritually. Both are real.

And also, I think I am right. If I didn't believe this I wouldn't say it. If I say, "I believe 2+2=4," does that make me arrogant? If some says, "I think 2+2=5," am I arrogant to disagree with them? The difference in this case is that we're talking about things that can't be verified with the senses instead of mathematical equations.

No, but math is factual, we can measurably state that the equation 2+2=5 does not work. It *IS* arrogant and stupid to tell someone else their religious beliefs (a non-factual thing) are wrong.

I didn't say human leaders didn't write the Bible. God worked through them and used them to do it. God works through us in spite of our faults and sins. I just meant that human leaders are not infallible. In other words, don't believe what someone just because they have a title or wear a robe.

I know you didn't suggest that, I was bringing up the point because you said that everything we judge these 'leaders' by should be from the Bible, and the bible itself was written by these leaders.

I hope you won't take this as a personal attack on you. It's not. I just want to make sure you understand where I'm coming from.

Of course not, this is a very interesting and engaging debate. It would be foolish to take anything said here as a personal attack.

Originally posted by gold eagle:
How irritating of you to suggest I'm two faced. If you read what you have quoted me on you will see I said I respect their faiths, ESPECIALLY if they demonstrate the best points of it etc.

Then I apologize, I merely misunderstood. Most often I've seen people add clauses like an 'especially' and it turns out that the clause is really how they feel.

Ppl should have to if they are trying to convince others theirs is right. If they are not selling it then no, don't bother to prove anything. Then you say you don't care what I believe, SO? I didn't ask you to nor did I cast any aspersions on what you believe.

Ah. I see the point you were trying to make now. I'm aware that you didn't ask me to believe in what you believe in, I didn't mean for that piece of my post to appear as though I did.


chsh your posts are beginning to take on an edge that suggests you know better than anyone else who has posted. You've pointed out "errors" in almost all the longer posts with your own "corrections". I hope this is not the case.

gold eagle, that is what a debate is about. Debating religion is never a good idea, but we seem to have a very mature bunch here, who aren't taking things personally. I'm not trying to 'correct' people or anything, I really don't believe that I could do anything close to that over the 'net. All I'm doing is having an interesting discussion/debate/etc..

This forum has been fairly useful so far. You or I don't have all the answers and it is not useful to pick apart everyone else's posts.

Not the posts, but the points. That is what a debate is for after all.

Originally posted by uraloony:
Let me give you some food for thought. You say that the feelings are part of our species. But where did those feelings come from?

The same place our insane need to war and be at conflict with each other comes from. It's built into the species.
Can you prove that it is fiction?

Yes, unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's all fact.

But it is inside everyone. If a person cannot fulfill his spiritual needs through God properly, he will go to another perverted source such as sex, drugs, material possessions, or some other source to "fullfill" his needs. However, this "fix" is temporary and will not last. The person is constantly searching for the right "fix", but never finds it unless he chooses God's way.

I disagree. I know many atheists that lead happy and fulfilled lives without god in them, and they're the healthiest people I know, they stay away from alcohol and drugs, etc..

Again, where have our morals come from. We can't have just evolved and somehoe chosen the right rules. If that was the case, then who is to tell me it is wrong to kill? No one. Because I have no leader and no morals. The place were we all get our morals from (like it or not) is the Bible. If you say "No I don't", you are wrong.

Why can't morals just have been evolved as part of the species?

Have you ever heard a term called 'race memory'? It's where certain cultures, and in many cases the species, seem to believe that certain creatures/etc. existed, but don't now. Dragons are one example of these things. Almost every culture has a dragon.

The born-again Christian faith should not blindly follow the leader. The Bible talks about the Noble Bureans (they were Christians in that day.) They were called noble becase "they searched the scriptures daily to see if the things their leaders said were true."

They're still reading a book written by those leaders. They are placing their full trust in a set of men they don't know the motivations of. That's a very dangerous thing, IMO.

I agree. We are not to follow things that disagree with the teachings of the Bible.

Why not? And why should we believe in the teachings of the Bible over that of any other religion?

2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

Of course they would like people to believe that it is god breathed, however, man wrote the words down.

So what you are saying is leave me alone, I do not want to take part of this discussion. If you wish for us to respect your veiws, then we can't take any action to try to disprove your religion. Thats my whole point. I can respect a person, (and I do respect you), but I can't really respect some of their veiws.

Uraloony, that was said because I thought that gold eagle was saying something he really wasn't. I was not saying I didn't want to participate in the debate. If that really was the case, I would not have written the post. Even still, I respect that your religious choice works for you, and would expect you to at least respect what I believe in, even if you disrespect some of the things that it says. I respect someone who is christian, even though I can't respect the hundreds of years of torture and murder that went on under the guise of the religion. I do not mind you trying to 'disprove' a religious choice (which is impossible anyways) I've made, what I do mind is being told what to believe in, as if it is the only way.

Originally posted by Alcatraz:
Finally, a hypothetical question for everyone. There is an unarmed stranger in front of you. You have a gun in your hands and nowhere to hide, and there are 20 skilled snipers aiming at you from various locations. If you do not kill the stranger in front of you, they'll kill you. What will you do?

Honestly, my answer would be 'of course I'd let them shoot me', but I know that instinct can take over in a situation like that. I'm not 100% sure on my actions as I've never been put into that situation.

Originally posted by rcgreen
I am gratified to see a heated discussion of religion without it getting angry or violent. I have had a lot of intense debates on this stuff and the only times I.ve been tempted to get violent is when someone wants to short-circuit
the whole discussion by saying something like "all religions are equally true", or even worse "it doesn't matter what you believe".

I can understand how that would get frustrating, however, the latter (on an individual level) is true, the first argument is false, because religions (being philosophical in nature) can't be true/false. To elaborate on the "it doesn't matter what you believe thing", to many, it may not matter what others believe on an individual level. I am intrigued to see where other people's faiths lie, and I may indeed some day find something convincing to me that will change my ideas about god, but until that time, I am content with debating and seeing what others believe in.

It would be a slap in the face of every participant, to tell them that the things they feel passionately about are matters of no consequence. My first principle in religious discussion is: This is indeed a very important topic. It is a shame that people in high places neglect the debate of religion, because everyone has a religion of some kind. Every thing we do is motivated by our beliefs, but too often these beliefs are hidden, even
from ourselves. Having a debate like this helps us to know our own selves, because it becomes harder to pretend
that we "don't have any beliefs" or that we "don't care"

I couldn't agree more.

ADDENDUM: edited to fix the bolding on the last quote.

[PhirePhreak]

Just one quick post until after school, when I will get to tear everyone to shreads :)

People seem to be confusing Christianity with religion in general. Let me tell you something:

Christianity is spelled D-O-N-E. God sent His Son to die for us. It happened. All we have to do is trust in Him, and we're going to Heaven. That's all we have to do.

Religion, on the other hand is D-O. You must DO a certain pattern of things to be considered "holy" or "worthy" of salvation. You begin to make these good deeds your god, rather than the One true living God.

Maybe this will clear some things up for you. I'm gonna have some fun in here this afternoon :)

God bless,
--PhirePhreak

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post469778) by PhirePhreak
Just one quick post until after school, when I will get to tear everyone to shreads :)

People seem to be confusing Christianity with religion in general. Let me tell you something:

Christianity is spelled D-O-N-E. God sent His Son to die for us. It happened. All we have to do is trust in Him, and we're going to Heaven. That's all we have to do.

Religion, on the other hand is D-O. You must DO a certain pattern of things to be considered "holy" or "worthy" of salvation. You begin to make these good deeds your god, rather than the One true living God.

Maybe this will clear some things up for you. I'm gonna have some fun in here this afternoon :)

Phirephreak, thank you for providing me with an example of the kind of arrogance I was describing. You're extolling your beliefs as fact. Perhaps you believe they are, but I think you could do with not describing them in a way which suggests that others *should* believe it too.

As I said before, I feel that religion is a personal choice, and that you should make that choice for yourself, and not 'convert' others, they will find their own way.

[Negative]

I've been following this thread for quite a while now, and I must say I'm pleased with the level of it...

A few remarks: I'm not christian, I don't believe in god or any other superior being, I only believe in myself.
Although I believe in the principles of christianity (and there probably WAS someone named Jesus who practised those principles some 2000 years ago), I also believe that Jesus-dude made one capital mistake: he mixed 'religion' with politics... 2000 years of history have proven that this only can go wrong; most democratic, civilized countries practice a strict division between church and state nowadays, and that's how it should be imo.
That's why I have to agree with chris when he says that religion is personal...

Originally posted by PhirePhreak
From reading this thread a few times, I've gathered that everyone wants factual evidence to support their beliefs... am I right in that assumption? Assuming that I am, I'm going to consider starting a new thread to prove Christianity beyond a doubt. But only if I feel that it won't be a waste of time, i.e., you'll actually visit it.

Many have tried, all of them have failed...

Rene Descartes dedicated his entire life to this matter... yet he failed...
Here's what he did (imo the ONLY possible way to PROVE Christianity beyond a doubt): if you want to prove something beyond a doubt, you'd have to get rid of everything that can be doubted... In your case, PhirePhreak, that would be...religion. Descartes's starting point was 'Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum' (I doubt, thus I think, thus I am'), in his opinion the ONLY certitude we have in life (imo, even that ain't sure, but let's give the guy some credit....). From there on, he continues: is there something else we can be absolutely sure about, something else we feel the same way about as the 'cogito, ergo sum'-principle? According to Descartes, there is something else: God. Why? Because 'we' have in ourselves the idea of an infinite, almighty, all-knowing being. His reasoning: the idea of an almighty, all-knowing being can NOT come from 'outside', because our senses don't show us anything but finite, natural things. Neither can this idea come from our own thoughts, because 'how can a finite, incomplete being form the idea of something infite, something complete'?

That's how Descartes tried to prove it. You'll have to come up with something more convincing, PhirePhreak ;)

Originally posted by Uraloony
But it is inside everyone. If a person cannot fulfill his spiritual needs through God properly, he will go to another perverted source such as sex, drugs, material possessions, or some other source to "fullfill" his needs. However, this "fix" is temporary and will not last. The person is constantly searching for the right "fix", but never finds it unless he chooses God's way.

Sorry, Uraloony, but that's a sick reasoning... You do realize that what you're basically saying is that all 'non-believers' are sex- and drugs-addicts, do you? The "right fix"? There ain't no such thing...

Originally posted by Uraloony
The place were we all get our morals from (like it or not) is the Bible. If you say "No I don't", you are wrong.
No I don't. Period. I got my morals from my education, from personal experience, from my own logical reasoning... No Bible involved...

Originally posted by Uraloony
2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

Is that your "prove"? Come on, man, you can do better than that...

Originally posted by Alcatraz
Finally, a hypothetical question for everyone. There is an unarmed stranger in front of you. You have a gun in your hands and nowhere to hide, and there are 20 skilled snipers aiming at you from various locations. If you do not kill the stranger in front of you, they'll kill you. What will you do?

I'd shoot him, no doubt about it... No regret, either... I hear your next question coming already: 'What if that person was your mother?'.... I'd shoot her, again without a doubt... Why? Because I'm damn sure that's what she'd want me to do...


Friedrich Nietzsche, Der Antichrist, 1895
I am unable to determine what was the target of the insurrection said to have been led (whether rightly or wrongly) by Jesus, if it was not the Jewish church--"church" being here used in exactly the same sense that the word has today. It was an insurrection against the "good and just," against the "prophets of Israel," against the whole hierarchy of society--not against corruption, but against caste, privilege, order, formalism. It was unbelief in "superior men," a Nay flung at everything that priests and theologians stood for. But the hierarchy that was called into question, if only for an instant, by this movement was the structure of piles which, above everything, was necessary to the safety of the Jewish people in the midst of the "waters"--it represented theirlast possibility of survival; it was the final residuum of their independent political existence; an attack upon it was an attack upon the most profound national instinct, the most powerful national will to live, that has ever appeared on earth. This saintly anarchist, who aroused the people of the abyss, the outcasts and "sinners," the Chandala of Judaism, to rise in revolt against the established order of things--and in language which, if the Gospels are to be credited, would get him sent to Siberia today--this man was certainly a political criminal, at least in so far as it was possible to be one in so absurdly unpolitical a community. This is what brought him to the cross: the proof thereof is to be found in the inscription that was put upon the cross. He died for his own sins--there is not the slightest ground for believing, no matter how often it is asserted, that he died for the sins of others.--

Don't mix religion and politics...

[gold eagle]

Welcome Negative, glad you're following it. It is going well with little problems.
;) I always like a useful exchange of ideas myself.

chsh -
Then I apologize, I merely misunderstood. Most often I've seen people add clauses like an 'especially' and it turns out that the clause is really how they feel.
Ok. Let's move on. I do in fact respect what you have to say, along with the rest of the crew.


Ah. I see the point you were trying to make now. I'm aware that you didn't ask me to believe in what you believe in, I didn't mean for that piece of my post to appear as though I did. No offense then. :)


gold eagle, that is what a debate is about. Debating religion is never a good idea, but we seem to have a very mature bunch here, who aren't taking things personally. I'm not trying to 'correct' people or anything, I really don't believe that I could do anything close to that over the 'net. All I'm doing is having an interesting discussion/debate/etc..

It is turning out to be a good debate in fact. Your points are well taken. Post more of what you believe - it might help some who are following this (lurkers) and have not yet joined the fray.

[gold eagle]

I might add this link No offense to the religious but you may wish to comment.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2002/2002-03-07-no-religion.htm

It speaks to ppl who have left the organized religions. Chsh this might indeed help your point of view somewhat as if so many are leaving, why?

[uraloony]

Sorry, Uraloony, but that's a sick reasoning... You do realize that what you're basically saying is that all 'non-believers' are sex- and drugs-addicts, do you? The "right fix"? There ain't no such thing...

I am not saying that at all. You are putting words in my mouth and making huge assumptions.
I mean some people MAY use those forms of pleasure as a fix. You say there is no fix, so how can one ever be happy?


No I don't. Period. I got my morals from my education, from personal experience, from my own logical reasoning... No Bible involved...

Why does your education say what it says and why do you choose to beleive it? What makes your reasoning logical?

Is that your "prove"? Come on, man, you can do better than that...

I will not bother posting anymore proof becuase you will choose not to beleive me anyway. It doesn't matter what I will post. Sure, I can bring you book after book written by a Christian scientist or theologian, proving without a doubt that the earth was created, not evolved. But that won't help me. You will say, "Oh, that comes from a biased view" or "Oh, they make it all up".

If you won't accept any of my proof and expect me to beleive that man just evolved, then I can't debate with you any further.

I am done posting in this thread.

[preacherman481]

Hey y'all, and so the debate rolls on :) . I want to post some links that may be helpful in describing the Christian viewpoint (especially if you're not familiar with it).

http://www.gieson.com/Library/projects/animations/walk/index.html
http://www.christianswers.net/jesus/ (www.christiananswers.net/jesus/) www.ccci.org/intellectual/ http://www.crusade.org/resources/fourlaws.html (www.crusade.org/resources/fourlaws.html) www.ccci.org

[preacherman481]

For some reason a couple links didn't post. Here they are:
www.ccci.org/intellectual/ (www.ccci.org/intellectual) www.ccci.org :cool: Thanks!

[Negative]

Originally posted by Uraloony
I am not saying that at all. You are putting words in my mouth and making huge assumptions.
I mean some people MAY use those forms of pleasure as a fix. You say there is no fix, so how can one ever be happy?

I hate to do this, Ura (it doesn't matter anyways, since you 'corrected' your original statement), but I wasn't making assumptions...

Here's what you originally said:

But it is inside everyone. If a person cannot fulfill his spiritual needs through God properly, he will go to another perverted source such as sex, drugs, material possessions, or some other source to "fullfill" his needs. However, this "fix" is temporary and will not last. The person is constantly searching for the right "fix", but never finds it unless he chooses God's way.

It is inside everyone: a reference to The spiritual hunger.
What I assumed you were saying, is exactly what you were saying... If you cannot fulfill your spiritual hunger (which you say is in everyone) through God, you will go to another perverted source.

You're the one putting words in my mouth here ;)
I put the "right fix" between brackets, and I did that for a reason... I should have stressed right though...

And about morals coming from the Bible... what about people who never read the Bible? They don't have morals then? Strange... really strange...

...proving without a doubt that the earth was created, not evolved.

Jeez...

And besides, what makes you think I'm looking for proof of any kind? Can't you see what's going on here? I'm not the one asking for proof, I'm the one telling you that there just is NO way to proof what PhirePhreak is trying to proof... I'd love to read some of that 'the earth was created, not evolved'-material though...

If you won't accept any of my proof and expect me to beleive that man just evolved, then I can't debate with you any further.

Hmmmm... so you're asking me to to accept your "proof" (if I don't do that, you won't debate with me anymore), but you don't want to listen to what I have to say? I'm not looking to proof anything here, just criticizing the way you're trying to proof something unprovable...
PhirePhreak, I'm waiting for your stuff ;)

[uraloony]

Hmmmm... so you're asking me to to accept your "proof" (if I don't do that, you won't debate with me anymore), but you don't want to listen to what I have to say? I'm not looking to proof anything here, just criticizing the way you're trying to proof something unprovable...
PhirePhreak, I'm waiting for your stuff ;)

Wrong. What I said AND MEANT what that if I present my proof that is not from the Bible, but rather is from archeology findings or science tests, you will label my stuff as garbage. I find that many so called "open-minded" people are not open minded at all. Heh, they won't accept any facts as true unless presented from their own "side".

Negative, the Bible is not impossible to disprove. Here are two quick reasons:

1. Archeology supports the Bible.

2. Jewish historical records support Jesus coming.

Hmmmm... so you're asking me to to accept your "proof" (if I don't do that, you won't debate with me anymore), but you don't want to listen to what I have to say? I'm not looking to proof anything here, just criticizing the way you're trying to proof something unprovable...
PhirePhreak, I'm waiting for your stuff

sidenote here: Again Negative, making assumptions...

You are criticizing me for supposedly trying to prove the unprovable. Well the Bible has been proven again and again in many different manners and ways.

Now, if you are interested , and will listen to my facts with an open, non-biased mind, I will go and search up some more proof. However, if you will label the things I bring as lies and scams, I will not waste my time.

[Alcatraz]

Looks like tensions are starting to rise.

Negative

I'd shoot him, no doubt about it... No regret, either... I hear your next question coming already: 'What if that person was your mother?'.... I'd shoot her, again without a doubt... Why? Because I'm damn sure that's what she'd want me to do...

That wasn't my next question, but that doesn't matter. Glad you're getting involved in this thread.

uraloony

Wrong. What I said AND MEANT what that if I present my proof that is not from the Bible, but rather is from archeology findings or science tests, you will label my stuff as garbage. I find that many so called "open-minded" people are not open minded at all. Heh, they won't accept any facts as true unless presented from their own "side".

Nobody is open minded, just like nobody is truly a 'realist.' No matter what we try to think or say, we will always be biased one way or another. Usually this bias is harmless and unnoticeable but nevertheless, it's there.

And a note to some of the guys who are looking for absolute proof about God's existance. You won't find it, you aren't meant to find it. I said this before and I'll say it again: proving God's existance proves that he does not exist. We're meant to believe in faith in God of our own free will. If it's proven he exists we won't be relying on faith anymore, but on a fact.

[preacherman481]

Personally, I believe if they had had a camera crew at Jesus' tomb on Easter morning, and they had caught Jesus rising from the dead on tape, people would still find some reason not to believe. Take a look at Mark 3:1-6, Jesus heals a man in front of witnesses. Some believed. Some didn't:

"Another time he [Jesus] went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, 'Stand up in front of everyone.' Then Jesus asked them, 'Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?' but they remained silent. He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, 'stretch out your hand.' He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus."

How do you like that? Jesus does a miracle. He heals a man. Do they give him the key to the city? Do they trust him and place their faith in him? No, they plot to kill him. If seeing is believing, the people who saw Jesus should have believed.

Have you every read the Bible and noticed this? The overwhelming majority of the people Jesus appeared to after his resurrection were already believers. Check it out. There were a few exceptions but not many. Why do people choose to believe or not believe? It's beyond me. I really believe God has to do a work in our hearts before we can see the truth. A person having faith in Jesus is as much as if not bigger miracle than the parting of the Red Sea.

However, this is not to say that there are not scientific and archaeological confirmations of the Bible and the events it describes and records. But my faith does not rest on proof Truth faith holds on to God even when it seems that everything else argues against it. Truth faith is a matter of the heart first and only then a matter of the head. :)

Jesus told his disciples "I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like little child will never enter it." What does that mean? It means that salvation comes when we trust God and put our faith in him. Faith in God means trusting a a Person and not a set of doctrines or a philosophy of life. It doesn't mean blindly following what some preacher says. It does mean humbly trusting in God to save us and do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. Namely-- forgiving our sins and giving us eternal life.

Now there's a concept we might want to discuss--sin. If we don't believe in God and we don't believe that Christ died for our sins, how do we deal with the guilt we feel? Do we deny it? Does that make it go away? I don't think so. It just digs itself deeper and deeper into our soul. How do we get forgiveness if we don't believe in God?

Heres a scenario. You shoot the unarmed person to save your own life. How do you deal with the guilt you feel because you killed someone just to save yourself? Do you pay money and apologize to their family? Will that undo what you've done?

In one of the earlier posts someone was questioning why God would require the death of his Son in order to forgive our sins. Good question. Because God is just and he cannot leave sin unpunished. For God to be true to himself he cannot be unjust. He cannot fail to punish sin. God would not be acting in accordance with his own nature. So he comes to earth and lives with us and then he gives his life on a cross for us.

If scientific and archaelogical proofs won't convince us of our need for a Savior, what about our own desire for forgiveness and restoration?

[rcgreen]

I don't think anyone in the ancient
world separated religion from politics.
Every king, emperor or pharaoah was
considered the incarnation of god,
or the mediator between god and man.

Those who had power were automatically
assumed to be the bridge between the
ordinary and the infinite.
They had the power to kill, therefore
they were "the supreme being"

What is the source of the modern
belief that there is a "higher morality"
with a greater validity than government?

If the individual has access to god,
tyranny is broken.

If there is no god, then "man" is the
supreme being. But does this mean
"man" the person, or collective man",
the state?

What you "believe" always has social and
political fallout.
:cool:

[psychosquee]

It appears as though stflook just found something that everybody has a viewpoint on. This is what AntiOnline is all about: the exchange of ideas in an organized enviroment. I personally don't follow the Chritian religion for the following reasons:

1.) Blind Faith- You can't see me, yet you must worship me without question. Hmmmm... sounds like a divine dictatorship to me. I have never been too keen on following something that bases its whole structure on something that cannot be seen (in this case, the religion).
2.) Money- I hate giving money to something that doesn't pay taxes on anything. God seems to always need money, even though he supposedly created the universe. Interesting. A divine creature needs something earthly...
3.) Parts of it are scaaaary- One of the many reasons I refuse to follow Christianity (as well as other religions) is the fact that many parts of it scare me as far as the extremity of some of their practices and beliefs are (ie scientology: If you become ill (for example, you develop cancer) under the belief of the Church of Scientology, you cannot be treated by modern methods... if God wants you to live, then he will allow you to recover from your illness... also, when I first heard about scientology, it sounded interesting because I thought it had something to do with the implimentation of scientific achievement with theological beliefs... obviously not. A suggestion: find a new name, so that someone can set up a true scientology, where Christianity and Science intertwine!)

Cooments, suggestions welcome.
Declarations of my damnation are not.

[PhirePhreak]

Greetz.
First, let me say this is not the proving thread I've been promising; I'm working on that. That thread will be more like a little research paper, and probably won't be up until next Friday (as I'm going out of town this morning). And, following suit, this will be my 'quote everyone' thread, starting with most recent and working back. And it probably won't be too terribly long, as my laptop batter is dying rapidly. Well, here goes:

psychosquee said:
1.) Blind Faith- You can't see me, yet you must worship me without question. Hmmmm... sounds like a divine dictatorship to me. I have never been too keen on following something that bases its whole structure on something that cannot be seen (in this case, the religion).

You might not see God, but can you see the wind? You see the effects of the wind, so you know it must be there. I can feel God whenever He is near and moving. Even if you can't feel Him, you can see the effect that He has on things. Personal story time: I was at a youth retreat a few years ago, and we were doing our evening worship service. It was kind of stormy that night, and all the lights in the chapel went out. We lost all the lights, sound, video, etc. But we kept on singing. And honestly, I don't think a single person that was there (even a few of my skeptical friends) did not know for a fact that God was there that night, and that He was very delighted to see that we loved Him enough to continue worshipping Him, even though it wasn't easy. We were placed on this planet for the sole purpose of worshipping the Lord. And also, God gave us free will. We don't HAVE to do what he says. We have the option to live how we want to live, but the punishment is eternal damnation in Hell. Or, if we do as He wants and worship Him, we spend eternity with Him in Heaven.

2.) Money- I hate giving money to something that doesn't pay taxes on anything. God seems to always need money, even though he supposedly created the universe. Interesting. A divine creature needs something earthly...

The reason that the offering plate is passed around at church is not to give it to God. It is used for furthering the glory of His name. That money goes to pay the staff of the church. It covers the electic, gas, water, and all other bills for the church. It pays to send missionaries. It pays for the children to go on retreats. Without this offering, that church would not last.

If you become ill (for example, you develop cancer) under the belief of the Church of Scientology, you cannot be treated by modern methods... if God wants you to live, then he will allow you to recover from your illness...

One thing: the Church of Scientology is not the (or even a) Christian church. And they are most likely the ones that you've been stereotyping with your post. Mostly, movie stars are really involved in Scientology (mainly because they have a lot of money, and the Scientologists have meetings you must attend if you want to be saved... and these cost up to fifty THOUSAND dollars to attend...). Also, they believe that you can do whatever you want, because you are, in short, the controller of god. Or at least that's my understanding of it, though it wouldn't surprise me if I was wrong.

And Negative said:
And about morals coming from the Bible... what about people who never read the Bible? They don't have morals then? Strange... really strange...

Every positive moral that exists today has biblical basis. The Ten Commandments are the most obvious ones. Have you ever seen a book of law that said it was okay to kill, steal, adulterate, or lie? Most people, even those who have never heard of God or the Bible, know the difference between right and wrong. Why? Because of the conscience that God gave each of us. We might chose to ignore it, but it's there (constantly nagging...). And what set of morals is this conscience based on? Those found in the Bible.

PhirePhreak, I'm waiting for your stuff

I'm working on it... it'll be a while, but it will be good. I hope you'll have a good time breaking it apart :)

chsh said:
Only if you assume that a creator does indeed exist, and as I said, we have no evidence of that.

I assume you have a better idea. Maybe it was all an accident? Somehow, I'd rather believe that Godzilla really exists than believe that. This world, I know, is not perfect (if it was, everyone would agree with me ;) ), but seriously, what are the odds that a few random elements could mix together to form, well, this? We all know (well, most of us know...) that you cannot take something nonliving and turn it into something living. You cannot take a rock, and turn it into a tree (might be kinda fun to watch you try, tho). You cannot take water (H2O) and turn it into a man-eating sea creature. It just won't happen.

chsh also stated:
Our best bet is evolution, which we know in essence works, because it's happened to mankind measurably over the last 1000 years.

While I'm working on my small paper proving (using facts and basic logic) the Truth behind Christianity, I have a task for you. Prove to me that evolution IS true. I look at me, and I look at an amoeba. For some strange reason, I don't see much resemblence. Or farther up the "evolution chain": I look at me, and I look at a whale. I have mouth, whale has a mouth. I have eyes, whale has eyes. But that's about the extent of it. Care to provide some hard evidence for evolution for me?

Ahh, but see, there's the sticky part. Religion isn't fact, it's fiction, so to speak. It is entirely philosophical, therefore there is are no true or false religions.

I'm going to let you people in on a little secret. The reason that so many have been saying that religion is fiction is that they already assume that. Before even considering the evidence FOR Christianity, they throw it into the general wastebasket labeled "Religion/Fiction". (Not a personal attack on chsh, so don't take it as such. Simply the first example I came to through my reverse journey through the thread.)

GoldEagle:
How about showing everyone WHY your faith is so good. So, live it and show it, then talk it.

Thank you for this challenge :) Ever since this thread started, I've been trying to live up to my Faith. Your post was very encouraging in that respect.

SarinMage:
there is no one creator, it was all created in an instant, when existence began.

But what was there before the universe that caused the universe to be created? And what was before that causing it to be created? And so on and so on... And how did it all come together to form the universe?

Well, I have 10% battery left, so I will call it a nite. I will talk to all of you when I get back from New Orleans on Sunday nite.

God bless,
--PhirePhreak

[Negative]

Originally posted by Uraloony
What I said AND MEANT what that if I present my proof that is not from the Bible, but rather is from archeology findings or science tests, you will label my stuff as garbage. I find that many so called "open-minded" people are not open minded at all. Heh, they won't accept any facts as true unless presented from their own "side".
Negative, the Bible is not impossible to disprove. Here are two quick reasons:
1. Archeology supports the Bible.
2. Jewish historical records support Jesus coming.

Dear Uraloony, I haven't said A WORD about the Bible not being true (that is, the general story as told in the Bible).
Here's a quote from my first post, just to remind you...
Although I believe in the principles of christianity (and there probably WAS someone named Jesus who practised those principles some 2000 years ago)

Another remark: I'm open-minded, and I'm willing to accept "facts" (facts are things that are in se true, I don't see why I should doubt facts...), but if your proof for, let's say, the creation of man vs. the evolution of man, is coming from the Bible, I'm gonna stop being open-minded.

My point was, and still is, that there is NO WAY you or anyway else can prove the existence of God (read Alcatraz' post, he said it very well).

You are criticizing me for supposedly trying to prove the unprovable. Well the Bible has been proven again and again in many different manners and ways.

Again, I NEVER doubted the existence of/the general story of the Bible. But if you say the God-part of the Bible has been proven again and again in many different manners and ways... I'd have to say that I'm eagerly waiting for some of that proof... (I'm not making assumptions here, Ura... mind the "if"-word). I've studied the two best-known "God-proofs" (Thomas of Aquino & Rene Descartes - wasted two months of University on that stuff), and those two theories are not proving anything... just making a lot of assumptions ;)

---------------------Sidenote part, off-topic--------------------------------

sidenote here: Again Negative, making assumptions...

I ripped your original statement apart, following the rules of modern (although it ain't that modern...) logic. Off-topic, but it was fun anyways...

If you won't accept any of my proof and expect me to beleive that man just evolved, then I can't debate with you any further.

A simple "if...then"-construction... (If A and B, then C)... Now, let's rip that thing apart...

1. If you won't accept any of my proof, then I can't debate with you any further.
2. If you expect me to believe that man just evolved, then I can't debate with you any further.

Let's concentrate on 1.
I rephrased that as "Hmmmm... so you're asking me to to accept your "proof" (if I don't do that, you won't debate with me anymore), but you don't want to listen to what I have to say?"... Now you tell me what the difference between your and my statement is...

-----------------------End sidenote part -----------------------------

Originally posted by PhirePhreak
And also, God gave us free will. We don't HAVE to do what he says. We have the option to live how we want to live, but the punishment is eternal damnation in Hell. Or, if we do as He wants and worship Him, we spend eternity with Him in Heaven

Now THAT's creepy.... I almost feel sorry for you guys :p
BTW: what about Buddhists? Most true Buddhist live a respectable life, no? But all of them will end up in Hell, because they don't worship YOUR God... Sad, really sad...

Every positive moral that exists today has biblical basis. The Ten Commandments are the most obvious ones. Have you ever seen a book of law that said it was okay to kill, steal, adulterate, or lie? Most people, even those who have never heard of God or the Bible, know the difference between right and wrong. Why? Because of the conscience that God gave each of us. We might chose to ignore it, but it's there (constantly nagging...). And what set of morals is this conscience based on? Those found in the Bible.

I agree with you when you say that most of my morals indeed are described in the Bible... they also are described in the Koran, fyi...
What I don't agree with, is the connection you're making between the Bible and God... You believe that the Ten Commandments were given to us by God (even that he's the one 'responsible' for having given us a conscience), and that's what I have a problem with.

And something else about those Ten Commandments... You're making it sound like this is a 'christianity-exclusive' thing... Sorry to disappoint you, but EVERY religion has got something basically the same as your Ten Commandments (and most of those religions are older than christianity...).


And I'm sure I'll have a GREAT time breaking apart your "proving thread" (Hmm... I have the last two weeks of March off :p ) ;)

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post470304) by PhirePhreak
Every positive moral that exists today has biblical basis. The Ten Commandments are the most obvious ones. Have you ever seen a book of law that said it was okay to kill, steal, adulterate, or lie? Most people, even those who have never heard of God or the Bible, know the difference between right and wrong. Why? Because of the conscience that God gave each of us. We might chose to ignore it, but it's there (constantly nagging...). And what set of morals is this conscience based on? Those found in the Bible.

Phirephreak, those ethics and morals don't come from the bible, you're contradicting yourself. They come from within, and maybe the better ones have been described by the bible. It should also be noted that the Ten Commandments are not a Christian thing, rather, it was something that Christianity stole from Judaism. The Ten Commandments are the rules a non-jew would follow to be saved by god. The Jews have 637 or so rules they have to follow, many of which are simply common sense.

I assume you have a better idea. Maybe it was all an accident? Somehow, I'd rather believe that Godzilla really exists than believe that. This world, I know, is not perfect (if it was, everyone would agree with me ;) ), but seriously, what are the odds that a few random elements could mix together to form, well, this?

Why can't it be an "accident"? The odds are pretty good when you have that MANY chemicals mixing together.
We all know (well, most of us know...) that you cannot take something nonliving and turn it into something living.

Actually, we don't know, your statement is completely false.

You cannot take a rock, and turn it into a tree (might be kinda fun to watch you try, tho). You cannot take water (H2O) and turn it into a man-eating sea creature. It just won't happen.

Nobody has said any of this, what they've said is that chemicals *do* and *can* form RNA, which is a close relative of DNA, which in turn can spawn life.

While I'm working on my small paper proving (using facts and basic logic) the Truth behind Christianity, I have a task for you. Prove to me that evolution IS true. I look at me, and I look at an amoeba. For some strange reason, I don't see much resemblence. Or farther up the "evolution chain": I look at me, and I look at a whale. I have mouth, whale has a mouth. I have eyes, whale has eyes. But that's about the extent of it. Care to provide some hard evidence for evolution for me?

1) you can't compare a completely unrelated creature. Try apes, after all, they bare the closest resemblance to us internally.
2) there are loads of evidence to support evolution. A quick search at google yields:
http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://library.thinkquest.org/C004367/ph5.shtml
http://www.wi.mit.edu/nap/pdfs/Director's%20Report/dir_bartel.pdf

I think your understanding of evolution is completely lacking, and perhaps you should research something you're trying to debate. It's more fun that way, rather than having you present views with rather absurd and unfounded statements that only serve to make you look foolish.

I'm going to let you people in on a little secret. The reason that so many have been saying that religion is fiction is that they already assume that. Before even considering the evidence FOR Christianity, they throw it into the general wastebasket labeled "Religion/Fiction". (Not a personal attack on chsh, so don't take it as such. Simply the first example I came to through my reverse journey through the thread.)

Actually, that's rather untrue in at least my case. My grandfather is an Anglican priest, and I spent most of my childhood believing the same teachings he did, and then I began to ask why people thought certain things, and if there was any evidence of it. I didn't find that the church offered any satisfactory evidence, so I decided to take a look at other Christian churches, and they too believed the same core things that were unexplainable. I considered both the evidence FOR and AGAINST Christianity, and the AGAINST outweighed it for me. Christianity seems to be to be nothing more than a vehicle for political power.
Even recently, the Vatican was trying to get the UN to give it the equivalent power of a billion or so people because that's how many Catholics are in the world, and any baptised Catholic is a resident of Vatican City, whether they're really living there or not. It's all about power. This is why I said and continue to say that religion is a personal thing. When people are organized into groups they get stupid and become like sheep.
Churches as I'm able to see them, are nothing more than political. That said, I have seen some rather good things done in churches on a day to day basis, and also some rather bad things.

Originally posted by Uraloony:
Wrong. What I said AND MEANT what that if I present my proof that is not from the Bible, but rather is from archeology findings or science tests, you will label my stuff as garbage. I find that many so called "open-minded" people are not open minded at all. Heh, they won't accept any facts as true unless presented from their own "side".

That's an awfully large assumption about what Negative will do. BTW, it's not wrong, you wrote what you wrote, that's not debatable at this point. You can argue the meaning of it, but I took it the exact same way Negative did.
Negative, the Bible is not impossible to disprove. Here are two quick reasons:
1. Archeology supports the Bible.
2. Jewish historical records support Jesus coming.

I think you meant to say "the Bible is not impossible to prove."
1. Archaelogy supports very tiny pieces of the Bible.
2. Right, but to them he was the Messiah, the Messenger, not the son of god.
Personally, I think you're arguing the wrong thing. Regardless of whether or not Jesus existed, the message he was trying to send (if accurately recorded in the Bible, which I highly doubt) is a noble one.

sidenote here: Again Negative, making assumptions...
You are criticizing me for supposedly trying to prove the unprovable. Well the Bible has been proven again and again in many different manners and ways.

Ura, instead of making those blanket statements like "Well the Bible has been proven again and again..." etc., why not try and come up with examples. I am truly interested in how it's been proven. What I'm looking for proof of is one of the following:
1) If it is historically accurate (probably the easiest to prove).
2) If the information contained within comes from God (impossible to prove).
3) Evidence to support various events.

Now, if you are interested , and will listen to my facts with an open, non-biased mind, I will go and search up some more proof. However, if you will label the things I bring as lies and scams, I will not waste my time.

You are making the assumptions here Uraloony, you are presuming that Negative is going to do any such thing, and you haven't even given him the chance, have you? This debate is not a place for people to get up on the soapbox and just TELL people how it is, it's a debate about the various things in Christianity. If you feel you are unable to do so in a calm, rational, manner then I would agree with you that you shouldn't 'waste your time'.

[gold eagle]

At the risk of being flamed, I'll make a few brief points. The discussion is taking on a new shape and ppl are putting forth ideas in a more descriptive fashion as opposed to "I'm right, you're wrong" which does not really contribute to the discussion. Or debate as chsh says it is.

Maybe it is now a debate.

I submit that in conversational exchange there are several levels -

Discussion - two or more ideas being passed between ppl :)

Debate - two or more postions being passed between ppl for the purpose of establishing the more dominant one, or agreeing to disagree. Examples are given and approved authorities quoted to support the positions. Opportunity is given in an equal fashion to all parties in the exchange and equal respect of position is assumed. ;)

Arguement - Two or more opposing positions that do not regard the other as having merit. Often tactics as putdowns and casting doubt upon validity and worth is used. :(

Fight - All parties have decided they themselves only are right and any means to "win" are used. :mad:

Let's all ensure we stay out of the arguing and fighting arenas so an intelligent conversation can continue.

:)

[gold eagle]

PhirePhreak - You're welcome. Also, since I don't know you maybe you are doing this now. Personally I think if one is going to promote something - anything at all, a religion, a distro of lx, a car brand whatever, one is more believeable if that person demonstrates why it is so good.
Waiting on your new and improved proof post ;)

[Negative]

Well Gold Eagle, some people have warned us for themes such as religion...
I still do believe we are having an interesting, intelligent debate here (may I remind you btw that 'discussion' comes from Latin 'discutere', meaning 'to fight'...).

Forum-discussions are something completely different from real-life, face-to-face discussions.

People who post on these forums have got plenty of time to think before they post. This is rarely the case in real-life discussions.

People who post on these forums have got every news-/information source they can think off at their disposal.

That is the reason why 'discussions' on these forums are taking on a new shape. Everybody 'figths' with the same weapons here. Unlike in real-life discussions, everybody has got the same opportunities to vent ideas... If you want to start a 15-pages monologue, you are allowed to do so. If someone else wants to reply with a 20-pages monologue, that person is allowed to do so... If someone else decides not to read that 15-page monologue, he is allowed to do so...

In the end, all those posts are just monologues...

BTW: how about we start calling this "discussion" a "debussion"?

[gold eagle]

Um. Well this won't be a monologue but, ah, discutere does not mean to fight. Latin root word means to disperse, to wit "dis" apart + "quatere" to shake. Besides, the modern usage in English is more to what my post says in any case.
We can call it a debussion, but you should get the credit for that word. :)
Yes - you are quite correct about the religion theme being what it is. It is simply my hope that this debussion remains at a higher level than others have been. I was the captain of my debating team in school....

[Alcatraz]

These posts are getting way too long for me to read. I do not have nearly a good enough attention span. So I'm going to start off on a new train of thought.

There are a lot of types of believers out there, and none of them have all the information. For example, I'd class PhirePhreak and chsh on the more extreme ends of belief and disbelief. And religions are quite a bit different too, and they make comparisons extremely hard. You can't compare Orthodox Judaism to Fundamentalist Islam, or Scientology to Christianity. It just don't work that way. So really, stereotypes are useless and insulting.

And a lot of these sterotypes stem from the strictest and worst examples of religion. And you have to keep in mind that not everything about religion should be taken literally. Does anyone REALLY believe that God created the world in a mere several days? I don't. I think God created the world and then set evolution rolling. So IMO, both views are right.

Now, PhirePhreak has addressed these questions but I have some different ways to answer 'em.

1.) Blind Faith- You can't see me, yet you must worship me without question. Hmmmm... sounds like a divine dictatorship to me. I have never been too keen on following something that bases its whole structure on something that cannot be seen (in this case, the religion).

You don't have to worship without question. I don't think Jesus ever said anything was wrong in doing that. Really, you have to worship through faith. And faith means basing it on something that can't be seen. If you knew the existence of something was a fact then you wouldn't have to question it. Without doubts, there is no faith.

2.) Money- I hate giving money to something that doesn't pay taxes on anything. God seems to always need money, even though he supposedly created the universe. Interesting. A divine creature needs something earthly...

From a religious standpoint, God gave you everything. Is it so bad to give back 10% of that?

And now, on to some more stuff.

Ten Commandments are not a Christian thing, rather, it was something that Christianity stole from Judaism. The Ten Commandments are the rules a non-jew would follow to be saved by god. The Jews have 637 or so rules they have to follow, many of which are simply common sense.

Actually, Christianity didn't steal anything. The Old Testament is accepted by Christianity, Islan, and Judaism. And it wasn't for non-jews, it was for everyone. And the 637 other rules! Damn! I didn't know they had that many! And that's crazy, people start following rules instead of following God, which is not His purpose.

[[WebCarnage]]

Christianity,.... hmmm.... Have you ever noticed how familiar and similar it is to Judism and Islam? Have you noticed that they all came from the same line of deciples (not as in sexually)? Hmm, interesting. So your telling me that all three are monotheistic, both came from around the same area (Middle East - Including Israel), and all beleive in each others prohpets. Just something to ponder on for a while...

Now there's a concept we might want to discuss--sin. If we don't believe in God and we don't believe that Christ died for our sins, how do we deal with the guilt we feel? Do we deny it? Does that make it go away? I don't think so. It just digs itself deeper and deeper into our soul. How do we get forgiveness if we don't believe in God?

So your telling me sin was created as a vent for your guilt? Come on mate, gimmie a break. If I died, would you praise me to calm the angry waters of guilt errupting within you? I wouldn't think so,...if I told you I was the 'son of Jesus'... and had books and proof to back it up, would you still do it? I doubt it - why? Because science takes a role in everything. Yes, even in religion, there is always science to contradict or backup religion - usually it contradicts, since myths are merely a figment of human imagination stretching for something to grasp at - God. Science, I beleive, is the whole controversy over this thread, even though it has been shifted into 'high-gear' plenty of times and people have no clue what the hell their posting and/or why. Ignorance isn't bliss in this case, I think - I think the guilt within us is vented through knowledge. If you shoot an unarmed person to save your own, I don't see any reason to have guilt in the first place, but if you do, knowledge on who the person was and what his intent was shall calm you; I know this, for it's happened to me before in a similar case (no people getting killed though, which is good).
As for me, venting to an 'Unknown' isn't quite my idea of calming down and bringing peace. I ask for forgivness, and how am I responded? By some guy in a box ordering me what to do for the next few weeks. Not Catholic? Then you don't get any response, besides the fact that you think you "know" that you were forgivin, for ...why wouldn't he forgive? This Almighty All-Powerful God of the Heaven's and Earth shall forgive in the most dire circumstances if your "saved"...

In one of the earlier posts someone was questioning why God would require the death of his Son in order to forgive our sins. Good question. Because God is just and he cannot leave sin unpunished. For God to be true to himself he cannot be unjust. He cannot fail to punish sin. God would not be acting in accordance with his own nature. So he comes to earth and lives with us and then he gives his life on a cross for us.

I've underlined some key points in your argument,...and I find that pathetically easy to pass off. I've been pondering this for quite a while now, and I find no reason to send your own son to die. If God was so mighty why couldn't he send us a few more tablets on which all this is written, as before, then sending his own son. I'm dubious that he was trying to go for dramatical effect on this one. Although it is intereesting, how you say "Because God is just and he cannot leave sin unpunished." Why, then, did he make it. Don't tell me this mumbo-jumbo about people giving us a 'choice',...for if that were the case, Heaven and Paradise would be a hell-hole. Which I doubt it will be. You also say that "he cannot be unjust. He cannot fail to punish sin" - which I understand fully, but if you found your son with the source code to Sub7, would you punish or let him learn to program a bit better? And besides,...I don't think I've been punished (besides for my parents) yet. And lets not forget "Gives his life on a cross for us", ...now, if my memory serves me right, then Jesus was the one on the cross, not Yahweh (Jehovah). Also, literally hundreds of thousands of people died on the cross, what makes it so special? If he died on a rock would everybody have little rocks to praise at in churches?

...Christianity, talk about controversial mate.

[preacherman481]

:cool: Hey guys,
Just a trivia detail, I printed out the thread from where stflook began it to WebCarnage's post of 3/8/02, 7:19P.M. It was 66 pages! What do you say we get a publisher and make ourselves some money? Just kidding. Now, I'd like to make a few points.

1. Yes, Christianity does share some things in common with Islam and especially Judaism. Christianity is essentially, the fulfilment of Judaism. Jesus Christ is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament. Christianity has its roots in Judaism. Chronologically Judaism was first, followed by Christianity, which was then followed by Islam. God gave the Jews two important institutions in the Old Testament. One was the Law. The law as given to Moses. The law described in minute detail what was acceptable behavior and what was not. God gave the law so that we would have no excuses and would not be able to plead ignorance concerning his will. It was meant to serve as a kind of spiritual "x-ray machine" and so show us our sin and how far we had strayed from God's will. The Ten Commandments (see Exodus 20:1-17) are a summary of God's moral will for humankind. God's laws in the Bible are meant to reveal our sin and show us that we need a Savior. God gave them to Israel so that when the promised Savior came they would realize their need for forgiveness. The second institution was the animal sacrifices. God had the Israelites sacrifice unblemished animals as a covering for their sins. This also was a preparation for the coming of Christ. It was to teach the Jews about the meaning of a substitutionary sacrifice for their sins. It was meant to be a graphic illustration of what Christ would do for us one day on the cross. All of these things pointed to Christ and what he would do. RC Green wrote way back on 2/23/02: "The purpose of Christianity is to offer something that (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't offered by the other religions, the forgiveness of sin." Yes, Christianity does have some common threads (pun intended with Judaism and Islam. But it claims (and does in my opinion) offer true forgiveness. All other religions (to my knowledge) either ignore sin or make a person try to be good enough to earn their way to God.

2. I might misunderstand you WebCarnage, but you seem to be thinking that I said God created sin. Correct me if I'm wrong. God did not create sin. Human beings did by disobeying God. God is the one who makes a way our sins can be forgiven through the cross.

3. Knowledge is fine. That's one reason I come to this site-- to gain more knowledge about computers. But knowledge can only take us so far. Science has multiplied our knowledge in manifold ways, but it hasn't made us any better morally. It hasn't taken the evil out of human hearts. It's only given us bigger and better machines to kill each other with.

4. God assures us of our forgiveness through his word the Bible, and through the witness of his Spirit in our hearts. We may not hear a voice saying "you're forgiven," but that doesn't mean God isn't speaking and giving assurance.

5. God sent his Son to die for us because even though we had his laws, we didn't live by them. It wouldn't have done him (or us) any good to send more instructions because we weren't living by the ones we had. So God did something new. He let Christ's death count as the punishment for our sins. And then he sent his Spirit to live in our hearts. Instead of following rules written in books we respond to the leading of God's Spirit in our hearts. Jesus' death on the cross is special and unique because only he is the sinless Son of God. He could have been executed in the electric chair. The important thing is that he did give himself as a sacrifice for our sins.

6. Jesus is God too. Christians believe in one God but three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus was God come to earth and born as a human being. Not half God and half human, but 100% God and 100% human.

7. If I caught my son with Sub7 I would make him write "I will not act like a skript kiddy by using lame programs to break into other people's computers 10,000 times." Then I would make him learn to program :D

[rcgreen]

If I seek to prove something, I must
appeal to authority.
If I want to measure the lenght of a
piece of wood, I appeal to the ruler.

If I want to certify the accuracy of my ruler,
I compare in to some international legal
standard.
Somewhere, the "standard" meter sits
and judges all the others.

If I, a created being, attempt to "prove"
the existance of god, what authority
shall I appeal to, in order to make my
proof?
If I possess enough authority to
prove that god exists,
then I also possess enough authority
to prove that he doesn't.

That wouldn't make sense, since I cannot
arbitrarily decide whether other humans
exist, much less whether or not god does.

If I appeal to logic, archeology, physics,
or history, I'm simply appealing to other
men to help me prove the question.
Those men then become the source
of the "proof".

They may have some special educational
training, but, in the end they did not create the
world. They didn't create god, and therefore
can't uncreate him.

Love him or hate him, only time will tell.
Each person will have to find out the hard way.
:cool:

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post470797) by Alcatraz
These posts are getting way too long for me to read. I do not have nearly a good enough attention span. So I'm going to start off on a new train of thought.

There are a lot of types of believers out there, and none of them have all the information. For example, I'd class PhirePhreak and chsh on the more extreme ends of belief and disbelief. And religions are quite a bit different too, and they make comparisons extremely hard. You can't compare Orthodox Judaism to Fundamentalist Islam, or Scientology to Christianity. It just don't work that way. So really, stereotypes are useless and insulting.

Who, hold on a sec here, how did I end up at the far end of the disbelief area?

And a lot of these sterotypes stem from the strictest and worst examples of religion. And you have to keep in mind that not everything about religion should be taken literally. Does anyone REALLY believe that God created the world in a mere several days? I don't. I think God created the world and then set evolution rolling. So IMO, both views are right.

Quite possibly so, but that is what stereotypes do, they take the bad or easily made fun of part of a culture/class/race/etc., and they blanket that across the whole group. I try not to stereotype as much as I can, but keep in mind that some parts of a stereotype are true of certain people. You are guilty of stereotyping in this post Alcatraz. Purely because I debate how the world was created, and the existence of some super-powerful supreme sentient entity, I'm labeled a non-believer.

Actually, Christianity didn't steal anything. The Old Testament is accepted by Christianity, Islan, and Judaism. And it wasn't for non-jews, it was for everyone. And the 637 other rules! Damn! I didn't know they had that many! And that's crazy, people start following rules instead of following God, which is not His purpose.

Actually, the 637 laws were created to keep the Jews happy and alive. Some of the stuff makes common sense. Two thousand years go they didn't have the refridgeration we have now, and eating pork could kill you, so it was made a religious law. Very intelligent if you ask me.

If you wish to debate judaism, I must step away, because my knowledge falls far short of that required for a debate.

[Alcatraz]

Who, hold on a sec here, how did I end up at the far end of the disbelief area?

I'm not going to take back or try and change what I said, because I did say it. But I think what I mean is that some posts seem to have more of edge to them. And it seems to me that your posts have more of that then other's do, which isn't really a bad thing.

Quite possibly so, but that is what stereotypes do, they take the bad or easily made fun of part of a culture/class/race/etc., and they blanket that across the whole group. I try not to stereotype as much as I can, but keep in mind that some parts of a stereotype are true of certain people. You are guilty of stereotyping in this post Alcatraz.

I know, I know. I went back over your previous posts and I realized you didn't say that you don't believe in God. I think it might have been the "god wouldn't care if an asteroid hit earth" thing that got me thinking that. Boy, do I feel hypocritical...

Actually, the 637 laws were created to keep the Jews happy and alive. Some of the stuff makes common sense. Two thousand years go they didn't have the refridgeration we have now, and eating pork could kill you, so it was made a religious law. Very intelligent if you ask me.

But if it was common sense stuff, why did they have to make it a law?

[[WebCarnage]]

But if it was common sense stuff, why did they have to make it a law?

A man steals bread from the 'bazaar' and gets punished:

A - Common Sense:
He would probably get his hand chopped off, no biggie - thats why he was born with two

B - Religious
You will suffer for the rest of your God-Given life and then live forever,...in eternal damnation

-------------

Which reason would You choose not to steal (or eat pork and poison yourself, for back then mold would grow from bad or no refrigeration)?

[gold eagle]

Cutting off a hand for that? Sounds like Islam's law, I don't know that Judaism had that tenet, did it? Far too extreme for me. Make the punishment fit the crime.

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post471254) by Alcatraz
I know, I know. I went back over your previous posts and I realized you didn't say that you don't believe in God. I think it might have been the "god wouldn't care if an asteroid hit earth" thing that got me thinking that. Boy, do I feel hypocritical...

No biggie. I didn't take it personally or anything, I just wanted to point that out.

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post471254) by Alcatraz
I know, I know. I went back over your previous posts and I realized you didn't say that you don't believe in God. I think it might have been the "god wouldn't care if an asteroid hit earth" thing that got me thinking that. Boy, do I feel hypocritical...

No biggie. I didn't take it personally or anything, I just wanted to point that out.

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post471106) by rcgreen
If I seek to prove something, I must
appeal to authority.
If I want to measure the lenght of a
piece of wood, I appeal to the ruler.

If I want to certify the accuracy of my ruler,
I compare in to some international legal
standard.
Somewhere, the "standard" meter sits
and judges all the others.

If I, a created being, attempt to "prove"
the existance of god, what authority
shall I appeal to, in order to make my
proof?
If I possess enough authority to
prove that god exists,
then I also possess enough authority
to prove that he doesn't.

That wouldn't make sense, since I cannot
arbitrarily decide whether other humans
exist, much less whether or not god does.

If I appeal to logic, archeology, physics,
or history, I'm simply appealing to other
men to help me prove the question.
Those men then become the source
of the "proof".

They may have some special educational
training, but, in the end they did not create the
world. They didn't create god, and therefore
can't uncreate him.

Love him or hate him, only time will tell.
Each person will have to find out the hard way.
:cool:

But you are forgetting a fundamental element...faith. Proof denies the need for faith, since faith is always related to the unknown or unknowable, the hoped for. My lack of a Christian belief structure isn't the result of my thinking that I 'know' or think I can 'prove' anything to the contrary. It's simply a lack of the capacity of faith neccessary to believe in it. Instinct, to a degree (that and never having it pounded into my head as a child). I have faith in plenty of other things, though, mind you...just not that.
I often wonder what the consequences of proving that a particular deity did, in fact, exist would be. Just imagine the Movie of the Week, the Pop-Superstardom, the edification...if I were a deity, I'd never show my face, nor reveal my presence physically to any of humanity nowadays. Christ DID live, a long time ago, and was treated with respect by some, and disdain by others...he was just a guy with some good ideas. I DO, however, have faith that he did not want any special treatment, but rather just to be heard. Not idolized, nor deified, nor argued over. Just for people to have faith in what he thought was right...just like anyone else.

Ouroboros

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post471106) by rcgreen
If I seek to prove something, I must
appeal to authority.
If I want to measure the lenght of a
piece of wood, I appeal to the ruler.

If I want to certify the accuracy of my ruler,
I compare in to some international legal
standard.
Somewhere, the "standard" meter sits
and judges all the others.

If I, a created being, attempt to "prove"
the existance of god, what authority
shall I appeal to, in order to make my
proof?
If I possess enough authority to
prove that god exists,
then I also possess enough authority
to prove that he doesn't.

That wouldn't make sense, since I cannot
arbitrarily decide whether other humans
exist, much less whether or not god does.

If I appeal to logic, archeology, physics,
or history, I'm simply appealing to other
men to help me prove the question.
Those men then become the source
of the "proof".

They may have some special educational
training, but, in the end they did not create the
world. They didn't create god, and therefore
can't uncreate him.

Love him or hate him, only time will tell.
Each person will have to find out the hard way.
:cool:

But you are forgetting a fundamental element...faith. Proof denies the need for faith, since faith is always related to the unknown or unknowable, the hoped for. My lack of a Christian belief structure isn't the result of my thinking that I 'know' or think I can 'prove' anything to the contrary. It's simply a lack of the capacity of faith neccessary to believe in it. Instinct, to a degree (that and never having it pounded into my head as a child). I have faith in plenty of other things, though, mind you...just not that.
I often wonder what the consequences of proving that a particular deity did, in fact, exist would be. Just imagine the Movie of the Week, the Pop-Superstardom, the edification...if I were a deity, I'd never show my face, nor reveal my presence physically to any of humanity nowadays. Christ DID live, a long time ago, and was treated with respect by some, and disdain by others...he was just a guy with some good ideas. I DO, however, have faith that he did not want any special treatment, but rather just to be heard. Not idolized, nor deified, nor argued over. Just for people to have faith in what he thought was right...just like anyone else.

Ouroboros

[[WebCarnage]]

Cutting off a hand for that? Sounds like Islam's law, I don't know that Judaism had that tenet, did it? Far too extreme for me. Make the punishment fit the crime.

I'm not Jewish, nor do I know their rules; it was merely an example. Don't take it to personally ... especially if you know you've stole something.

[[WebCarnage]]

Cutting off a hand for that? Sounds like Islam's law, I don't know that Judaism had that tenet, did it? Far too extreme for me. Make the punishment fit the crime.

I'm not Jewish, nor do I know their rules; it was merely an example. Don't take it to personally ... especially if you know you've stole something.

[stflook]

Originally posted by preacherman481
Knowledge is fine. That's one reason I come to this site-- to gain more knowledge about computers. But knowledge can only take us so far. Science has multiplied our knowledge in manifold ways, but it hasn't made us any better morally. It hasn't taken the evil out of human hearts. It's only given us bigger and better machines to kill each other with.

I would like to point out the fact that evil is all perceptive. It is defined by society, or in many cases, religion. Take the WTC bombing for example. We consider this to be an act of pure evil and hatred. Members of the Al Qaeda (and contrary to popular belief, many of the Afghan people) believe that this was payback, and even necessary. You must remember that we have done things to them in the past that they consider evil and we don't. Back when Russia was at war with Afghanistan, we gave aid to the groups that were fighting back. After the Russians retreated, those groups split into two major groups; the Al Qaeda (Taliban), and the Northern Alliance. These groups took over government of the country, with the Taliban controlling about 90% of the country. They blame this fighting on the fact that we did not help them rebuild after they were done doing the dirty work for us. Let us also not forget the times that we have desecrated their holy lands. They consider all that to be evil, while we don't. The only things you perceive as evil are those that you are told so to do, whether by society, family, or religion. Christianity has defined most of those things you consider to be evil. So for just a second, let's assume that Christianity is wrong. All those definitions of good and evil are pretty worthless, then, aren't they? Just for a second, assume there is no god. At this point, nothing really matters in the big picture. It doesn't matter whether or not you kill or rape or torture, because in the BIG picture, none of it makes any difference. We have no grasp on events. We're helpless, and our very existence is pointless.


I hope I'm making sense to everybody. :dunce:

[preacherman481]

I assume that must of the laws and morals we have come from God. God has built into us the capacity for conscience, and as our conscience is educated by the standards of God's word, we have the capacity to act morally. Yes, apart from God's revealed standards, right and wrong basically is one person's opinion against another's. Right is whoever wins the war and writes the history books says it is. But, as you already know, I believe there is a God. And whatever God says is right is right, and what God says is wrong-- is wrong. My own opinion matters very little. What matters is God's perception. If there is no God, maybe our existence is pointless. But if there is a God, and I believe there is, our existence has purpose. We were made to glorify him. That is the real purpose of our existence.

[stflook]

Yes, that's true, but if we knew for sure that Christianity was right, there would be no point in debating this. It would all be laid out for us neat and pretty like. Although I have serious doubts about Christianity, I try to follow the majority of its values on conduct. I feel that the majority of these are very good ideals to follow, as long as you don't get obsessed with them. I try to follow these ideals, but I don't let them interfere with my life too much. However, other people perceive laws of morlaity differently, and conduct themselves accordingly. That is the point I was trying to make.

[PhirePhreak]

*sigh*
School's getting crazy. Life's getting crazy. And I've decided to spend less time on this thread than I have been. If you are genuinely interested in Christianity, please send me a message or email and I'll be happy to answer any questions you have. Otherwise, this is it for me on this thread. It's been great. It's just that I find it to be a complete waste of time to argue something that everyone has a predisposition against. Since everyone (or most everyone) already "knows" Christianity to be a lie, they can't truthfully examine it and give it another chance.

I'm out.
God bless,
--PhirePhreak

[[WebCarnage]]

Since everyone (or most everyone) already "knows" Christianity to be a lie, they can't truthfully examine it and give it another chance.

That's exactly what this thread is about mate... to truthfully examine and give it another chance if we choose to do so. This thread wasn't to make converts, or to screw over religion in any way - and besides, this is the Cosmos Forum... :)

Peace
-[WebCarnage]

[Negative]

Sad to see you go, PhirePhreak...

A few last considerations... (speaking just for myself here, not for anyone else):

* I don't have predispositions against christianity. The values christianity stands for, are common sense (and I ain't talking about a Greater Common Sense here).
The question is not whether christianity is a lie or not, the question is what God has to do with it... It's a good thing that you don't need 'proof' for that aspect of your belief, but some of us do...

* I find argueing about something that everyone has a predisposition against a learning experience...
The kinds of discussions we're having here, are not about winning or loosing, they are about questioning your own views, testing them against other people's views, making your OWN MIND up about what you want to believe and what you don't want to believe. It's not about trying to change other people's points of views.

If you consider your point of view to be beyond questioning, or if you don't want to discuss your points of view, you'll never find your own truth...

[jcmcb]

Just thought I would add my 2¢ to this discussion, which I must say has gone remarkable well! Congrats to all!

My Thoughts -

I am a Unitarian Universalist (www.uua.org), and I believe that communal spirtuality has a value to the individual.

However I am not a Christian (or a member of the other "Revealed Word" religions [Islam/Jewdism] is that I cannot believe in a God who would create Evil, and then punish those who choose other than he/she/it wishes. If God needs my worship, why does he allow doubt? I also can't believe in a god who allows so much evil, for it seems to me that such a god would be evil him/her self.

I also don't believe in the bible, as it was created by human hands. Writen by "Moses" and the the "Matthew", "Mark", "Luke", and "John" and then ratified in its current form by the council of Nicea in 379. The Bible is to far from the word of god to base a life on.

Anywho, just my humnble opinion.

[Ouroboros]

After reading jcmcb's post, I was reminded of a thought that I once had that I tried to explain to a devout Christian.
God is good, correct? Lucifer(the Fallen Angel, Morning Star, Satan, whichever) is bad, correct?
Here's my thoughts...I am inclined to believe in a duality in all existence. Hence, I believe that 'good' and 'evil' resides in all things. In the beginning...God was all that there was, then he created Earth and the Angels...Lucifer rebelled, and was cast down. With me so far? Where did the 'evil' that was born into Lucifer come from? Must have been God, since he created all things, right? God had 'evil' in him at one point, which was borne by Lucifer, who was cast down. BUT, from my understanding, the Angels were not given free will. How is this possible? Was Lucifer created specifically in order to bear 'evil'?
Sorry if I am delving too deeply into the story, but nobody else that I know has thus far has had the capacity to answer that question honestly(partly because they don't know what I'm talking about...Christians, indeed;)), and I hope I can tap a mind or two here to shed some light and voice a few thoughts...:) The whole of the Christian culture holds many interesting paradoxes and truths that many ignore(or just haven't realized), and I, for one, enjoy pondering them instead of outright dismissing them.

Ouroboros

[Alcatraz]

However I am not a Christian (or a member of the other "Revealed Word" religions [Islam/Jewdism] is that I cannot believe in a God who would create Evil, and then punish those who choose other than he/she/it wishes. If God needs my worship, why does he allow doubt? I also can't believe in a god who allows so much evil, for it seems to me that such a god would be evil him/her self.

Eek. First post I've really disagreed with. The worship of God is based on faith, and faith alone. It's the concept of free choice. If there were no alternatives to God we would have no choice but to worship him. And that is not faith, or free choice. That's slavery.

God does not punish those who follow Evil. God will forgive anybody, no matter how many people you kill. All you have to do is ask for forgiveness, and mean it.

After reading jcmcb's post, I was reminded of a thought that I once had that I tried to explain to a devout Christian.
God is good, correct? Lucifer(the Fallen Angel, Morning Star, Satan, whichever) is bad, correct?
Here's my thoughts...I am inclined to believe in a duality in all existence. Hence, I believe that 'good' and 'evil' resides in all things. In the beginning...God was all that there was, then he created Earth and the Angels...Lucifer rebelled, and was cast down. With me so far? Where did the 'evil' that was born into Lucifer come from? Must have been God, since he created all things, right? God had 'evil' in him at one point, which was borne by Lucifer, who was cast down. BUT, from my understanding, the Angels were not given free will. How is this possible? Was Lucifer created specifically in order to bear 'evil'?
Sorry if I am delving too deeply into the story, but nobody else that I know has thus far has had the capacity to answer that question honestly(partly because they don't know what I'm talking about...Christians, indeed), and I hope I can tap a mind or two here to shed some light and voice a few thoughts... The whole of the Christian culture holds many interesting paradoxes and truths that many ignore(or just haven't realized), and I, for one, enjoy pondering them instead of outright dismissing them.

Thank you for delving. I've actually done some thinking about this. I believe the Angels were created with free will and I also believe there's a random track in life. Something that isn't planned but just happens. Like freak accidents. I think Lucifer might have randomly had a bit more doubt, or evil, and used his free will to step away from God. Or, like you said, he might have been created just to bear evil. Maybe God asked someone to volunteer for the job, who knows.

[PhirePhreak]

Greetz all.
Well, after posting my previous post less than 12 hours ago, I've had numerous individuals contact me telling me that I really need to be here. So, I've decided to continue posting here, tho not as often (most likely) and I'm not going to fool with finishing my little research paper project. If you would like to read it, please email me at PhirePhreak@hackermail.com or PM me and I'll be more than happy to email you a copy.

God bless all, and thanks for the encouragement.
--PhirePhreak

[preacherman481]

Hey all,
First of all, I want to ask a clarification question.

Ouroboros-- What do you mean when you say "God had 'evil' in him at one point"? Does that mean God is still partially evil?

Second (open for anyone), What is everyone's conception of evil? Just wondering. Some people seem to be saying that evil is just a matter of perception. We think things are evil based on our own unique viewpoint, i.e., one person's good is another person's evil. Is evil a reality? Or is it just a concept in our brains? I know what I think. What do you think? Please explain your answer.

Third, given your own understanding of evil, how do you interpret the events of 9/11? Were the attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center an act of evil? Please explain what you mean.

Fourth, do you believe in a person devil? Do you believe Satan is a living being?

Fifth, how do you explain the presence of evil in the world?

[debwalin]

Whew! That's a lot of questions! First of all let me say that I am a Christian. I am a United Methodist, and I was born and raised believing. I am also a human being, and occasionally (no more than 20-25 times a day!) I slip up and do something I'm pretty sure God's not too pleased with. However I do have the faith to know that if I ask His forgiveness, it is mine, right here, right now, no more questions asked.
Now, on to the question of evil, and choice. We do not all live a preordained life. We are free to make decisions, and follow our decisions. That is how God created us. He did not create us to be mindless followers. He gave us brains, and hearts, and souls. What we choose to do with the gifts He has given us is up to us. He has also created enough beauty and unexplainable mysteries to point us in the general direction of knowing that something Greater than us must exist. And He sent His son to show the depth of His love for us, that we no longer have to follow the rules laid out by man, who can be hypocritical and selfish. All we have to do, after the sacrifice of Jesus, is to follow ten fairly simple rules, and accept Christ as our Saviour.
Yes, in my mind the acts of 9/11 were evil. Not because they were comitted by people who believe something different than I do, because almost all religions follow the same basic guidelines as Christianity. There are differences, but they all come down to the belief in a loving, forgiving God. I believe the acts were evil because as I said earlier, God did not make us to be mindless followers....of ANYONE. The men who committed these acts were brainwashed by a criminal. And to the Christians who condemn all Muslims....may I remind you "Let he without sin cast the first stone." ;)

[rhane]

Faith is the ability to believe in YOURSELF and through yourself activate your role in creation.
From this springs the attributes we admire (or scorn) of honesty, honor, integrity, etc...
Logic will ALWAYS lead you in circles unless like the mentats in Dune novels your questions allow you to balance on uneven or unconnected surfaces (battlegrounds).

[rcgreen]

Evil is anything that rebels against the will of god.

So, how about if you don't believe in god?
OK, then evil is what violates the will of "the majority"?

What if the majority is "wrong"(in your opinion)?

Then evil is whatever disagrees with you.

What if I disagree with you?
Then I'll have to kill you.
:cool:

[jcmcb]

Alactraz -

I am confused. I have free will not to believe/worship in god, but if I don't then I go to hell? How is that any different from slavery? A gilded cage is still a cage.

[SarinMage]

evil is inherent in everything, it is that which is the oppisite to something... dont think of it as "bad" jsut think of it as the oppisite of what we prefer... some of us anyway, lol

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post473330) by preacherman481
Ouroboros-- What do you mean when you say "God had 'evil' in him at one point"? Does that mean God is still partially evil?

Speaking for myself personally, I believe no being can be good/evil, only their actions can be good/evil. Thus any god can be viewed as good and evil at the same time. Personally, with my understanding and feelings about god, I feel that my understanding of god is that god is a neutral being, neither good nor bad. God simply does what he/she/it must to ensure that the fragile balance of the universe is not disturbed too greatly.

Second (open for anyone), What is everyone's conception of evil? Just wondering. Some people seem to be saying that evil is just a matter of perception. We think things are evil based on our own unique viewpoint, i.e., one person's good is another person's evil. Is evil a reality? Or is it just a concept in our brains? I know what I think. What do you think? Please explain your answer.

Evil is a philosophical thing, as is Good. Evil and Good, much like Beauty and Ugliness, are in the eyes of the beholder.

Third, given your own understanding of evil, how do you interpret the events of 9/11? Were the attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center an act of evil? Please explain what you mean.

Personally, I believe it was an act of evil. I believe that killing innocents at all is evil, which is why I argued heavily against bombing Afghanistan.

Fourth, do you believe in a person devil? Do you believe Satan is a living being?

Satan is a purely Christian construct. There is no basis for an anti-god (antichrist) in any other religions. Hinus recognize that life is a cycle of birth, life, and death, and that all things eventually succumb to these things. This is why they believe in three gods (or perhaps, three aspects of one god -- I'm not a hindu): Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. All three combined create the cycle of life, and all three are equally necessary for the cycle to be preserved.

Fifth, how do you explain the presence of evil in the world?

Evil is a construct created by man to define things he/she disagrees with --or even hates-- on a fundamental level. Like rape, murder, torture, etc.. These are all things that many people feel are evil because they fundamentally cannot tolerate such things.

[chsh]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post473627) by jcmcb
Alactraz -

I am confused. I have free will not to believe/worship in god, but if I don't then I go to hell? How is that any different from slavery? A gilded cage is still a cage.

I have often argued this point, and most Christians I've encountered reply with a rather stupid "it's a test" style of answer. This point is one of the biggest flaws I see with Christianity. Almost all other religions allow for people to have different beliefs (the Jews even wrote guidelines for others to follow which were rather simple) and still be 'saved' or rather, not punished.

[SarinMage]

i went to catholic school... they dont ahve a clue what "evil" is. they jsut go by what the people above them say, who, in turn, blindly follow the person above them..... it just keeps going like that...

[Alcatraz]

I am confused. I have free will not to believe/worship in god, but if I don't then I go to hell? How is that any different from slavery? A gilded cage is still a cage.

If you don't worship God, you probably don't believe in the somewhat-screwed-up Christian afterlife. So then you wouldn't believe in hell, and if I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. Cause really, why believe in hell but not in God?

I don't know if I'll contradict anything I've said before, but that's okay, my views are changing as I've followed this thread. I think you can worship whatever you want and still get to Heaven. Doing good deeds go to God, even if they're in somebody else's name. Likewise, doing something evil in God's name goes to Satan.

The Christians who made up the rules about having no choice but to believe in God were selfish, greedy, and interested only in personal power.

So far, people have just pointed out flaws in Christianity, most of which I agree with. Nobody has really argued against God himself, or the principles religion. I wonder why that is? (Not a rhetorical question, I really am curious.)

[debwalin]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219434#post473627) by jcmcb


I am confused. I have free will not to believe/worship in god, but if I don't then I go to hell? How is that any different from slavery? A gilded cage is still a cage. [/B]

Hmm, this one is a tough answer really. I guess for myself the answer would really be I believe because I believe. Now, I'm guessing that isn't going to be a really good answer for you, so I will try to stumble through an answer.
Please understand this is what I believe, and not a personal criticism of any one else, or their beliefs!
You don't have to believe, or accept Jesus. That is your choice. But free will and choice lead you down particular paths in life. And the path for not accepting Jesus is going to hell. It's not slavery though the way I see it. Slavery would be something negative, something that required you to do something bad, or against your will. The Christian life is a life of freedom. Most of the posts I have read here are by people claiming to live by morals and standards anyway. All Christianity is is a way to have leadership and guidance in your spiritual life, to have someone to call on in times of trouble, and someone to thank in times of abundance and happiness.
I get the feeling here that a lot of you have had very bad experiences with organized religion, and I can respect that. But as my Grandma used to say, you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The thing you have to remember is that preachers, rabbis, priests, or any other type of spiritual leaders ARE PEOPLE TOO. They struggle with the same problems you do, and some of them are jerks....just like the guy you work with, or go to school with, or live down the hall from. But God is not. God is perfect love and he loves you with a perfect love. The only person you have to answer to in this life is ultimately God. And the nice thing about that is that he knows you better than your mom does, and he loves you anyway. Enough to send his son to die for you, so that you may have eternal life. I as a mom think that sacrificing my child for you would be enough to make me feel like you owed me a little loyalty. And that the choice is still yours, but maybe there would be a negative consequence for that choice.
Whew...this is tough.
Please let me know if I've come anywhere close to answering your question. It's a tough one to answer, because I am not all that scientific, and like I said, I believe because I believe, and that's where it gets tough for you analytical guys. I have my bible, and my faith. That's all I need to get me through.
Deb :)

[jcmcb]

Alcatraz/Deb -

Thanks for trying to answer my question. I am glad you realize that I am not trying to in any way "dis" your religion or your beliefs...

Al - I believe in a god, but not in a heaven. If any good deeds get you into heaven (lets say it does exist), whose judges the good deeds? We all have different definitions of good after all...

Deb - I think you missed my point. My question is thus: If I have to believe in Jesus to be saved (ie not suffer eternal torment), how do I have a choice? The idea of freedom, at least to me, seems pointless if there are no alternatives. This is not about (at least to me) the various rules that others say "god" needs, but the idea that you have to worship this all powerful being. If he is are creator, and loves us, then it shouldn't matter if we acknowledge him or not. There should be no test for admittance. A parent loves a child unconditionally. Period.

Just my thoughts...

[Negative]

Makes perfect sense, Debwalin...

'I believe because I believe'... guess that says it all...

I live by my own morals and standards, and the only person I'll ever answer to is myself. And yes, my morals and standards probably are pretty the much the same as yours, but I prefer living by those standards because I myself believe in them, not because I know I'll go to hell if I don't live by them...

And I don't believe you'll go to hell if you don't believe the same things I do... That's the difference ;)

And yes, I'd owe you a little loyalty if you'd sacrifice your child for me... I'd probably have a minor conscience problem if I didn't... I'd have to live with myself for the rest of my life... That's worse than having to face God....

I have my own faith... That's all I need to get me through...

Take care...

Neg.

[debwalin]

Jcmcb....whew, thank YOU for not thinking I was being too whatever....it's very hard to try to explain something you believe to someone who doesn't believe the same without sounding pushy, self righteous and altogether difficult!
Neg....lol, I'm glad it's enough for you because I'm afraid that I believe because I believe is as good as I get when things get really tough...it's hard to explain something you just have faith in!
Okay, let me see if I can try again. I actually did get your point I think jcmcb, but trying to get from my brain to my fingers occasionally creates a traffic jam, and not everything I mean to say gets through. Let me see...I think that God deserves a little something back, at least acknowledgement, for creating us. I have said that God is perfect love, but it also says in the bible that God is a jealous God. He wants love and respect and acknowledgement. I will admit that I see your point, and I don't have a really good answer right off the top of my head. I don't understand all there is to understand. But it just makes sense to me that if I had created this world, and everything in it I would want some worship for it. BUT I am not God, and me speaking for him is kind of, well, lame!!! And as for the rules made up by men, that is why God sent Jesus to be sacrificed. That way, your good deeds DON'T get you into heaven.
You don't have to do anything at all to get into heaven, except accept Jesus. I think it would have been kind of nerve racking to me to wonder every day if I had been good enough to get into heaven.
I guess you're right to some extent, there really isn't a viable other option. The idea of choice and free will speaks more to why there is evil in the world if God is good! I don't know how to explain something I just believe any better than that. Here's all the proof I have....when things are really bad, and I don't see any way out of it...I pray. And I pray hard. And you know what.....it almost always works out for me. That may not be enough proof for some, but for me, it works. The trick is remembering to say thank you, too.
It does say in the bible that God loves unconditionally, but he can't help you if you don't ask. He can't save you if you don't ask. Have you ever heard the parable of the lost lamb? If you haven't I will tell you, but if you have, I will try to save (a little) space by not explaining it all here. But that is the message God has for us....he will leave the whole flock behind in order to save one, and that there is more rejoicing in heaven for the one who was saved, than for all of those already there. Heaven weeps for every sinner lost.
Ahem, I have taken way more than my fair share here.....so just one more thing....
Neg....the difference between me and God is that he loved the WHOLE WORLD enough to sacrifice his son......I can't think of one person I love that much! (except maybe for my son...and that would be self defeating!lol)
Please don't feel like I am preaching to you, I just want to try to make you understand why I believe.....and also this is really stretching my brain!! I am a regular old person who screws up just as bad as ANYBODY else...trust me. Like I said before, I'm sure God isn't too happy with me a lot of the time, but I can ask for, and receive forgiveness. That's why I keep trying. Because no matter what I do, if I ask for forgiveness I will receive it.....it's a pretty good feeling!

[jcmcb]

Deb -

I too feel the bottleneck between the old Gray Computer and the New Titanium one...

Two things I still don't understand/agree with...

1) Origninal Sin - I don't believe I am or should be responsible for what my predecssors did... it just doesn't make sense (not that you mentioned it, but I thought I ought to).

2) If good deeds don't get you into heaven, and only belief in Jesus does, then why can I doubt Jesus? It seems to me that its very cruel for god to have a set of rules to follow, and then not tell everyone (God has yet to vist me, at any rate). If God came to me and said "Worship me or got to hell" thats one thing. But at the moment all I have to go on is the word of some others who are attaching there own meanings/ideas to what god may or may not have to say. Since I belive god would care about me following his/her rules, I don't believe that the bible/worship of Jesus is valid, having been handed down only thru the mouth of man.

(brief aside about hell)
I once talked with with a Minister about hell. He told me that he believed in the bible, so he belived in hell, but he also belived in the infinte love of god, so he thought hell was empty. I would agree with the that idea.

[Alcatraz]

Origninal Sin - I don't believe I am or should be responsible for what my predecssors did... it just doesn't make sense (not that you mentioned it, but I thought I ought to).

I totally agree, and that's one thing that bothers me about Hinduism. Who care what I did in my past life?

If good deeds don't get you into heaven, and only belief in Jesus does, then why can I doubt Jesus? It seems to me that its very cruel for god to have a set of rules to follow, and then not tell everyone (God has yet to vist me, at any rate). If God came to me and said "Worship me or got to hell" thats one thing. But at the moment all I have to go on is the word of some others who are attaching there own meanings/ideas to what god may or may not have to say. Since I belive god would care about me following his/her rules, I don't believe that the bible/worship of Jesus is valid, having been handed down only thru the mouth of man.

Following Jesus gets you in, only if you mean it. Empty prayers don't get you anything. But good deeds do. You can get to heaven without knowing who Jesus is, as long you live a decent life.

I once talked with with a Minister about hell. He told me that he believed in the bible, so he belived in hell, but he also belived in the infinte love of god, so he thought hell was empty. I would agree with the that idea.

Shh! Don't tell anybody! Hell's the big secret of the world, it's just an empty threat! I have to say that I too agree with the idea that there's noone there.

[[WebCarnage]]

Originally posted by Deb
God is perfect love and he loves you with a perfect love

I have a different approach ... What if God isn't perfect and only loves who He wants when He wants. Is it that difficult to beleive? I doubt it,...

Imagine our purpose on Earth is only to entertain God, what if he never even thought once about a heaven or hell, he doesn't like half the people here so why should any of us live forever, whether it be in pain and suffering or happy and fun. What if he just wanted "something to do" for the rest of eternity, and himself, created good and evil just to make some conflict arouse.
What if God wasn't perfect, made mistakes, got hurt, felt pain...just like everything else. Honestly, God could have just been a clumsy one, and thats why half the things that are, are. What if God didn't have everlasting love for everybody, and had to choose only a few. Or that God did infact have everlasting love,...but choose not to share it.

Things wouldn't be so different if that were the truth mind you...

But if you noticed... my whole post was built on "what if's" and "imagines" ... And might I add that thats what a "good" religion is based upon too. So many "what if there was a higher beings" turned into "what if he really cared for us and made heaven" then finally to "God send me to Heaven when I die". From a total uneducated guess, to the front, life-or-death fact that there is a heaven and people do infact go there...

Ironic.

[debwalin]

I am going to make an intelligent well thought out reply to your post WebCarnage and jcmcb....as soon as I get done thinking. You guys are giving my brain cells a serious workout. But I am still thinking, just didn't want you to think I had bailed on you because the questions got tough. ;)
Deb

[debwalin]

Okay, here I go again! Lol...I think I will start with original sin...The idea of original sin is not really a Methodist specialty, but I will explain what I think on the subject. I think Adam and Eve really blew it for everyone....but if they hadn't someone else would have. You think your mad....try the pain of childbirth! Lol...but that is one of the punishments that were placed on mankind for eating from the tree of knowledge. And this was discussed at the very beginning of the thread...but Adam DID eat from the fruit also...but only after Eve persuaded him. But that is the reason that we still suffer consequences laid down by God. We did have the original opportunity to live a perfect happy life with no work, supposedly painless childbirth, and eternal life on earth. The point here I guess is, once we had knowledge, (which I believe was the knowledge of evil) there was no way to continue the species without knowledge. How would Adam and Eve been able to teach their children how to live without the knowledge they now had?
There is also another verse in the bible that discusses the sins of the father being visited upon the son, i.e. you are responsible for your fathers actions. However, after the sacrifice of Jesus, that is no longer applicable. You are no longer responsible for anything other than your own salvation.
I am afraid that I am going to have to completely disagree with Alcatraz on this one though...I firmly believe in hell, and that people who die without accepting Christ as their saviour do go there. I do have some questions about that myself though, because it seems such a waste for people who devoutly follow their own religions (i.e. Judaism), that don't believe Christ is the risen Saviour, to not be recieved into heaven. So I can't really answer that one, because I do believe in hell, and I don't believe it's empty, but as to who definitely goes there and who doesn't, I'm not real sure!
WebCarnage, I just can't accept that. I know that's not proof, or even a rational argument. I just can't believe God created us for his own personal entertainment. It is such a central part of my life to believe what I believe that I can't even fathom that. I certainly don't mean this as a put down to you...I just have the faith that God created us to live in his image, to be responsible for spreading the gospel to others, and to worship him, until we join him in heaven. I have really thought about this, and I can't think of a way to argue your point. All I can say is that in the bible, it says God loves me. I have seen what was to me evidence personally that God loves me, through studying and reading the bible, and prayer. I know that isn't a great persuasive big impressive argument, but it's what I have....my faith. Like I said in a previous post, when it really gets tough, sometimes I believe because I believe is as good as I can do.
I hope everyone has a nice weekend, I have a ton of yardwork to do, so I may not get back here til Sunday night or Monday, but (to quote Arnold S.) I'll be back!
Deb :standupha
(sorry, that smilie just tickles me, and if you read my mood....that's what my hair really looks like now....awful woman!)