FBI....Oh my!!.....lol

[haraam77]

Just out of curiosity sake. I f the FBI were to seize a computer during a raid.....I heared they can retrieve any info off of it even if u have tried to erase it. Is this true? :2pick:

[nabylbt]

depnads what the dude did to its pc.... if you send a emc sockwave trough it, you won't get much.... if he has an explosif rigged to the case, same thing, but make sure the charge is big enough ( i'm pretty sure i read something about some finnish? agency recovering data from a burned hd)
if it is encrypted, it depands on the type, strenght of the scheme used, but they'll get through
otherwise they 'll get everything for sure... when you delete a file, the os, usualy, just erase the filename's location and not the data itself...
so you got to use a shredder (norton's got one i'm not sure what it's worth) a shredder will overwrite the data several times (at least 7 ?) so run twice and that's it...

[smirc]

Hmmm, why would the FBI want to raid your computer? Are you doing something you shouldn't?

[Remote_Access_]

If the FBI or any other agency takes your computer they can find ANY information that is on there. Your computer is like a tape recorder. It recordes everything that you do. All of your activities. Damn near every thing that you've ever done on your box can be traced. It depends on how old the information is.. but yeah, they can. ;)

Remote_Access_

[morfius]

Hrms...everything? I knew it just deletes the file location, but after a while wouldn't your system just overwrite that sector, therefore making the previous data on it unrecoverable?

[haraam77]

Alrighty then, thank u all for the interesting replies....sheds some light on the subject. And, by the way "smirc".....the FBI would not want to take my pc. Also, did I even say such a thing? :2pick:

[gold eagle]

Hey RA are you back? Wasn't today the ....day?

[wab73]

ra, getting a bit paranoid ???

a lowlevel format gets rid of any data.
(or get a tool that rewrites all sectors... )

btw... ever used encryption ??

[llipschutz]

RA, are you sure about that "everything" comment? A few low-level formats (writing zeros to the entire drive) should erase prettymuch any trace of anything. . . Or so I have believed. . .

[k41d3r07h]

ahhh, the beauty of linux....unless I'm mistaken the shred command first overwrites the contents then hides it from the OS, that way it's securely deleted..

[jcmcb]

I have to agree with RA, they can get everything you have on there....unless you physically slice and dice your HD! And even then who knows....

Also, just FYI for those who don't know, they copy your HD onto a new one, and then **** with it!

[souleman]

The last test I heard, the NSA had found a way to read information from sectors that had been rewritten to something like 10 times. If they are admitting this, then they can probably go back 12 to 15 times. You can get programs off the internet to completely erase files (even pgp has a wipe utility) that overwrite a deleted file anywhere from 1 to 24 times.

[llipschutz]

okay. . .that's kinda scarey, but I'm not surprised. . , everything leaves an electromag residual.

and yes, though you can dice your HDD, they can peice together almost anything there. . .it's kinda scary. . .ressurecting the dead. . .

(I've done it with broken CDs, just to see if it worked. . .i got *some* data)

[llipschutz]

for a *REALLY* secure wipe, I would say 15000 degrees should do just fine. . .

[k41d3r07h]

I agree...15000 is probably about right

[zigar]

this is an article from 1995..."they've" been doing it a long time...at least over written up to 9 times...article seems to say that 10 is the magic number...

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.10/data_pr.html

i remember hearing a rumbling a month or so ago about a new data recovery technique using scanning electrons...can't remember now and couldn't google it...

for most cases a good shredder is enough

i've use supershredder from analogx ..it's free
I've also been using sure delete...it's also free and is customizable with 3 levels of security..plus it's drag and drop and you can do single files or whole drives...

to be absolutely sure...i'd encrypt you whole drive then shred it ...then if "they" do recover it...they also have to decrypt...then do a hard drive polish...(do a search for defraggling in the archives...if ya haven't seen how to defraggle...you just have to... :D )

[digga]

i would use a shredder 200 times, than u can be sure that it´s really down

[SilvrThorn]

I read about a program that you can use that basically destroys your whole computer's data with a single words entry is that true?

[zigar]

that's what these "shredder" progs do...they repeatedly overwrite the file.


basics

files are magnetically written to disk using 1's and 0's
when you delete a file in windows/dos it doesn't delete it...it just marks the physical space the file is occupying as free. it can remain there in it's entirety until something else writes over it

problems in terms of security

files stick around until they are overwritten even when they are deleted from recycle

files are not stored in contiguous chunks...a single file can be stored in many different phsyical parts of a disk (that's why we defrag...) so even if part of the file is over written, parts might not be and some data may be exposed.

because we are dealing with magnetism, there is a residual background "noise" that can be read by sensitive equipment and data recovered..even after being overwritten several times.

the shredder programs work on various schemes by writing patterns overtop of the full phsyical space taken up by a file..the more times the disk/file is written over, the less likely the chance that it can be recovered...

[TechieChick]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219810#post459883) by jcmcb

Also, just FYI for those who don't know, they copy your HD onto a new one, and then **** with it!


Yep... :D

Keep it forever as evidence too.

[romart]

The recovery depends a lot on how you removed the data, and whether you maintain a backup of the partition. The safest method is to encrypt the files that would be searched for and have only a memory cached version you view. A RAM disk is nice for this you decrypt to a RAM disk and us it. When you shutdown..... the information is destroyed. Just remember to keep the encryption keys away from the system.

[k41d3r07h]

and here I thought that my info was safe when I trurned off my monitor

[SSATTLER]

Take a look at encase from guidance.

Data has been recovered that has been erased and overwritten up to 7 times that I know of and on some drives that have been formatted several times.... :rolleyes:

So yes.

Check into ontrack data recovery systems.... :

[Remote_Access_]

You have to remember who you're talking about here. It's the FBI
not your local police station. It dosen't matter what encryption you use
cause I'm sure that they have a key. Even if they didn't how long do you
really think it would take for the FBI to decrypt the data? It dosen't really
depend on how you've removed the data cause they'll find it. If you want to
completely erasy your HD smash it into a million pieces and then burn it. After you've
burned it hide the ashes.

BTW, I'm not parinoid and I am sure about the everything comment.
Let's call it being 'cautious'. ;)

Remote_Access_

[BERBURT]

if u format it atleast 7 times thats the government standard.
they will not be able to find anything except the stuffu overwrote with because when u delete or remove something all you are really deleting is the FAT table so the info u thought u deleted is in perfect condition on the hard drive you just cant get to it without the fdat table unless u back it up.
but i would format at least 14 times just to be safe.
NABYLBT hit it pretty good though.

[BERBURT]

oh as far as encryption goes they have the time and the proccessor power to use brute force
so sorry encrytpion will not save ur ass
just delay them

[Remote_Access_]

That may be the 'standard' but that dosen't mean any thing.
They have technology in forensics (and other things)
that we've never even heard about. They always have something
up their sleves. Yeah, just delete the data eh? Hehe, sure thing.
It it was me I'd go with my method of destroying the data but
what ever. It's not my box being poked and proded at.. you'd be
suprised at what they can do with computer forensics.

Remote_Access_

[[WebCarnage]]

hell no...15000 degree's?! HA! I shit out hotter feces...


...25000 should do the trick

[echelon3]

As a Data Recovery Expert I find most freeware shredders are crap. The best one I have come across is Wipe Info in Norton Utilities 2002.

You should see how suprised my friends are at school when I recovery there passwords off their floppy's when they thought that they deleted them for good! :D

I've never used this virus before but it's called the Hard Drive Killer Pro. It claims to mutilate the hard drive physically. If you want to try it, give me an email (mcgill@dcsi.net.au). I forgot what website I got it from.

[Jabberwocky]

the dod standard for file shredding is 7 swipes of random data. remember that wiping a file isn't the same as the whole drive, there's always the slack space, and some operating systems save everything you type in a keyboard buffer. when you close the program you were typing into, it's usually dump the contents of the buffer into the slack space.

if someone were determined enough, it's possible to use an electron microscope to find traces of data on a disc, no matter how many times you've overwritten it.

it's pretty easy to find things like hex editors online. if you're interested, type something into a file like in notepad or something onto a floppy, deleted it, then check out the disc with norton undelete or the hex editor. you'd pry be surprised by what you find.

[haraam77]

Nothing short of a sledge hammer and an intense heat......lol.

[thesecretfire]

Use thermite, massive heat (the iron produced in the reaction melts), plenty to burn the drive into nothingness.

[lucktsm]

There are a few tools for defeating most forensic programs. Evidence Elliminator is a nice program that writes to your free sectors and also kills all the little logs and databases that can identify what you have been doing.

Another is called Santigov. It is actually a secure erasing program that will clean your hard drive and write junk to each sector as many times as you wish.

However, if the FBI really wants information about you, they probably already have what they need.

[valhallen]

hmmmm i remember reading in some post that they even managed to recover data from a HD that had not only been formatted and over-written but actually had 6'' nails hammered through it - the only data they couldn't get was that which occupied the place where the nail went through :)

btw :echelon3 - HDK is from hackology.com (http://www.hackology.com)

v_Ln

[teamme]

vmn boasts a a million bit encryption... Take no chances, removable media is the way for me..

[Noia]

did you know that: CD's/Mag. tapes/Flopyes burn really well? they do....
Best way to get rid of pesly 1'z and 0'z is flames.....hehe, I'm not a Pyromaniac, I just like setting fire to things....j/k

- Noia

[whtn0ise]

low level format... nope (but you keep believing that) :-)
shread.... nope
over writing... nope
FBI... not a chance - but they know who to give it to15000 deg... maybe...

better get a can of silver polish and clean wrags and pull the disks to be sure... still, maybe not even then...

[shkuey]

The procedure for removing a hard drive from a secured area, at least the security level the government enforces on my company, it must go through several stages of formatting and left without power for a full year. At this point they feel secure in the fact that the information is unrecoverable.

It takes over three months to even get memory out of the vault. Apparently there are methods to read that too.

[Terr]

I would suggest building and putting a powerful potential electromagnetic device in your computer. When you plug the computer in, it charges a capacitor. When you unplug (hard power) your device without performing certain precautions, the capacitor discharges into the electromagnetic coil right next to your hard drive. :)

[hummer]

I think massive radition is the way to go...but again how can you obtain such deadly sustance
except if you work in a nuclear station..Then you could just somehow dump your hd,cd's,floppy's.etc. in the reactor.

[rute67]

short of shooting your drive or damaging it in one way or another, then they can get virtually anything and everything off of your drive. the only way to make sure that the contents is unrecoverable is to physically damage the drive itself.

[King_Jim]

But surely when you format your c:/ everything is deleted and teh electrormag is deleted so can tey still retrive files once formatted? if so this could prove useful as i recently formated and lost some work :confused:

[King_Jim]

But surely when you format your c:/ everything is deleted and teh electrormag is deleted so can tey still retrive files once formatted? if so this could prove useful as i recently formated and lost some work :confused:

[Neo TRINITY]

Read some interesting thoughts here. Do any of you actually know anything about cops working on computer crime investigation or computer forensics ? What sort of tools are they using or do they develop their own ?

[Magor Clanger]

I was reading an article in a magazine the other day for a program called "Shred 2". It does make for an interesting read. There`s a link for it below. I haven`t used the program yet myself, but it seems impressive.

http://www.pcmag.com/article/0,2997,s=1478&a=17506&app=1&ap=2,00.asp

Hope this helps.

[ecryption]

FBI holy shit...... I agree with remote _ access that the computers record everything that you do and that is true but this is a bit of paranoid

[Neall]

I work for a company, where one of there areas of work includes dealing with other companies hard drives, often with sensitive data on, we first preform a low level format on them, then we have to hit them with a hammer for about 5 - 10mins till the disk surface itself is completly damaged all over. They seem to be happy with handing over there computer/HD's, if we agree to preform the above procedure on them, but i imagine there will be someone with some way out there to recover info on that disks, even when physically damaged. :/

[jaguar291]

Just like RA said, the FBI can find EVERYTHING on your computer if they were to seize your computer but if your worried about this, I recommend rigging some sort of explosive into the case. I don't know how to do this but I read about the feds having to reassemble a computer because a kid wired his computer with explosives and when they seized it, the whole thing blew in the back seat of their car. But if you know you're screwed and you have time I recommend 15000 degrees of heat, I'm pretty sure that would do the trick.

[Vorlin]

Don't assume a low-level format gets rid of everything because there are data-recovery companies that *specialize* in pulling data off, even after government wipes (which are pretty good). If you wipe a drive with a government wipe, meaning 3 times with 0s followed by 1s or some random string, they can still pull it, at the cost of several several thousand bucks (enough to buy some really nice cars actually). After that pull (which may or may not have everything but pieces), the hard drive is trashed and unusable.

Moral of the story: don't think formats and software wipes you get from Norton or whatever keeps your data from being read if the right methods are used.

[11001001]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=219810#post460006) by SSATTLER
Take a look at encase from guidance.


EnCase is the industry standard for both Law enforcement and the private sector.
It can look at "any" OS including linux and Mac.
Check these for the specs:

www.encase.com

Also, echelon3 is right about Norton Wipe Info. Probably the best.

P.S. lucktsm- If ther FBI finds Evidence Eliminator on your computer, they're bound to ask "why"...;)

[Tuskin]

Perfect solution... 220 comes right out of your little wall (in america anyways) all you need to do is rig up a simple resister... your hdd being the resister... you could make it interesting and have some capasiters in there to... give it a jolt of a couple thousand volts with constant running electricty will bring the temp way up and will also fry it... the electricity should scramble everything (I dont know that for sure but I'm pretty sure I'd do the trick) ... if the 1000 V of electrons doesnt the heat will...

... next issue... will the electricity actually pass through the case containing the actual disk or is it "protected" from surges? if not then you have it made... if not you will have to figure that out too.

***DANGER*** this may be FIRE HAZARD! lol

[Kindred69]

The active ingredient in Coke is phosphoric acid. Its Ph is 2.8. and it will dissolve a nail in about 4 days. To carry Coca-Cola syrup (the concentrate) a commercial truck must use the Hazardous material place cards reserved for highly corrosive materials. The distributors of coke have been using it to clean the engines of their trucks for about 20 years!

Hell I dont know if it would work if i ever get a HD to totally kill I try sticking it in coke. If it works i pass on how long it took, be worth a try anyway just to see. Or perhaps use sulfuric acid from a car battery, hell if the HD is a liquid mess they are not goign to be able to get anything from it.

Kindred69

Update; found a HD to kill its in the coke.

[synexic]

I've heard that they can get anything from the HD, unless its been formatted like 15 times since the data was put onto the machine, but then again, it's only what I've heard.

[fr0z3n]

lol i think someone already said this.. and i believe this lil thread, is dead .. lol

um, anyway; why would you wanna know wut would happen if the Feds actually do something with your computer?
--I seem to think, your up to something.. ;) are you? LoL prolly not.. =)

[Kezil]

Ultimate computer security:
*Never, ever even touch a computer for as long as you live

If you insist on using a computer (with outside connection):
*Firewalls, as many as you can get
*Custom OS designed specifically for the security of the system
*Regularly (every day, or more) overwrite everything not being used (slack space, deleted files, etc.) at least 20 times
*Use the largest and most secure encryption scheme you can find, in conjunction with the second largest, the third largest, the....
*One custom TotalSecurity Box to contain your system. Features include:
**One standard interior
**Hard drive surrounded by two high power, supercooled and superconducting electromagnets
**15 gig RAM, so decrypted files have no need to go on HDD
**HDD further surrounded by two High heat devices (25000+ degrees Fahrenheit)
**Two layers of lead, containing highly radioactive substance, with trap door to HDD
**Entire case surrounded on all sides by six (count 'em SIX) micro-hydrogen bomb devices
**Extra space to contain sensitive disks, tapes, etc.
**1 to 8 switches to activate devices (user assigned) on exterior of box, within easy reach
**Total time to execute all devices (minimum): <1 minute
**CAUTION: bombs and radioactive substances highly hazardous to health unless properly contained.
*any thing else you could possibly come up with




NOTE: I'm not paranoid. Really I'm not....it's just that everyone is out to get me....

[PastyPyro]

Theres plenty of ways to get rid of data, think outside the box.

[zigger]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=#post) by PastyPyro
Theres plenty of ways to get rid of data, think outside the box.

Just remove the disc's from the hardrive and stick them in a bucket full of Hydrochloric Acid
for a week.
No more disc :-)

[Scorp666]

PGP freeware suite has a wiping tool which uses encryption so that is 2 file destruction processes in one! I would use that 14 times just to be sure then run 2-3 other wiping tools then format my hd a few more times... Even then a pro lab could probably recover some data out of the disk... Would it contain anything readable, I have no clue!

If you want to be absolutely certain, do what I said on a old HD and send it to a recovery lab for a free data recovery quote. You would need to be really paranoid or really in deep sh*t to do so! :D

I any case get PGP Freeware 6.5.8, it's cool stuff and free!

[Kezil]

One more for extravagant data destruction:

Ingredients:
One(1) data disk
One(1) particle accelerator
One(1) ton heavy atoms (atomic number 100 or above)

Directions:
Place data disk on target area of accelerator. Accelerate 1/100 of total intial atoms to 99.9999995 percent light speed. Release particle stream to target area. Repeat until either disk destroyed or atoms run out, whichever comes first. Repeat as neccessry.

[Scorp666]

lol Ok How much would you sell your accelerator for? :D

I am in Canada so I can get nickel, would that work? lmao

[draziw]

Short of completely melting or disintegrating the disk down, there's almost no way that you're going to be able to "destroy" a disk badly enough so that high-level government is not able to somehow ressurect the data that was on the drive. Even the "commercial" degaussers (often used to "erase" tapes and the like) aren't strong enough to destroy everything on a disk so that they can't ressurect it (but are good enough so that "common people" and public agencies have close to a snowball's chance in hell of getting it back) - these devices, from what I understand, are actually limited in their capabilities so-as to make it possible/easier for the government to still be able to read what was once on a tape or a drive.

The way I've had it explained to me in the past (or at least what I remember of it) is that you can think of your harddrive as being composed of tracks as wide as a 20 lane freeway... when the device is written to, a big-huge truck comes flying through there and writes the data along whatever path it takes along this microscopic path (ie. over many lanes of the "freeway," including and that "splashes out and hits the gutters" and similiar). As strange as it sounds, the heads of a drive don't actually ever really traverse the same path along the same track... and even formatting or "demagnetizing" a drive (or writing over it, for that mater) still leaves traces of what was once there. Certain agencies are capable of pulling apart the drive, piece-by-piece, and reassembling it to what it once was... and getting data off of that...

It's really pretty frightening when you think about it.

[draziw]

Oh, and as far as crypto goes... the government here places limits on what you can reasonably use. Much like the degaussers, anyone want to hazard a guess as to why there's actually "a limit?"

And, myself... I've seen 128-bit plus keys broken in less time than it took me to write this message - I'd only guess that those special government agencies can probably break much stronger forms in similiar amounts of time.

[Scorp666]

If I was 199 times more paranoid then I am, I would use 3 different PGP keys with different algorithms to encrypt all my files. Off course I am not paranoid and wouldn't really mind CIA having access to my porn files... :D

[The Old Man]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=#post) by souleman
The last test I heard, the NSA had found a way to read information from sectors that had been rewritten to something like 10 times. If they are admitting this, then they can probably go back 12 to 15 times. You can get programs off the internet to completely erase files (even pgp has a wipe utility) that overwrite a deleted file anywhere from 1 to 24 times.

Well said Souleman... In about 1997 NSA could retrieve from six "overwrites" deep (X's & O's mostly but with random alphas thrown into the overwrite process) so i have no doubts the technology can go deeper now, especially with today's high grade hard drives compared to yesteryears, and the various places data is held besides where you think it is..... :D

[System_Overload]

It sure is funny how a stupid thread like this gets so meny replys....


System_0verload

[preep]

heres what happend to 2 russian guys

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/14/eveningnews/main508953.shtml

preep

[dougie1]

if the FBI wanted your computer HD they wouldent even need to leave the ofice to get it.
to trully hid some thing from the FBI you need to not hook up to the internet with it.OR ELSE.
they can get everything they want and you wont even know they got it till they arrest you!!

[IELAN]

I KNOW THEY CAN DO ALOT BUT THEY ARE ASKING CONGRESS FOR ALOT MORE. THIS WAS HOW 911 AND THE WORLD TRADE CENTER WAS MISSED.....CAN YOU BELIEVE IT? BUT TODAY BEFORE THE SENATE INVESTAGTIVE COMITTEE THE FBI ANNOUNCED THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE COMPUTERS FOR THEIR AGENTS. C'MON EVERYONE LET'S ALL EMAIL THEM AND MAKE OUR WEB DESIGNER FAMOUS! AT WWW. FBI.GOV. I WOULD GO INTO A PANIC IF I WERE YOU ,,,,,,,,UNLES YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO PANIC ABOUT. IN WHICH CASE I WOULD GER RID OF MY HARD DRIVE IF YOU WANT HONEST ADVICE. I DO NOT SEE WELL AND USE CAPS I NEVER SCREAM IN PUBLIC OR PRIVATE AT ANYONE SO PLEASE DO NOT THINK THAT OK? PLEASE EMAIL ME FOR HELP IF YOU LIKE...?

[roswell1329]

Yup. I have a friend who has had need in the past to request a data retrieval from the FBI. All they did was send it to a commercial data-recovery center! Techniques of today have the ability to retrieve data beyond 26 levels deep! The best way to truly protect your data is to

a) never store anything on your harddrive that isn't encrypted by 1024-bit encryption (os included)
b) drop your drive into an active volcano.

[blow]

Still think pyshichal + chemichal force would do the trick

[Fakeboy]

Need to clean your hard drive? BCWipe from www.jetico.com is a good free space cleaner. Also under the folder once BCWipe is downloaded you can find BCWipePD which works great if you want to wipe the drive completely. Also www.maresware.com has NTWipe great for wiping NT boxes. I wrote a presentation defining the steps to take to ensure no information can be recovered, but that is a little intense for the average user. However, to play it safe I would suggest. Once a month (more if you have something to hide) Step 1. Clean all temp folders, Internet Cache and so on. (programs and files also if you don't want them on your PC) Step 2. Empty Recycle Bin Step 3. Run BCWipe with all options checked (You want a program that will wipe Free Space/File Slack/Slack Space) Step 4. Defragment your hard drive Step 5. Run Step 3 Again. This will really help if you have something to hide, and if you just want to play it safe. The average user should do this quarterly. Clears any account information you may have forgot about and so on... Play it safe.... Technology is very complicated.

(just a request... I share as much knowledge as I can, but if its a spoof post that someone posted, I try to have fun with it. I'm just that kind of guy. Please watch the negs, I don't think I deserve to be banned. If I did something wrong.... e-mail me... great... thanx all....)