Zero times infinity

[pwaring]

The rules of mathematics state that anything multiplied by 0 is 0 (since you have 0 items), and anything multiplied by infinity is infinity (since you cannot have multiples of infinity). However, these two theorectical concepts (I say that because you can't really prove that infinity exists or that anything is infinite) come into conflict when you multiply zero by infinity. Which takes precedence?

BTW, my opinion is that it equates to zero, but I'm not 100% certain on this...

[hot_ice]

I put 0 as well, I'm pretty sure that it's 0, but hey, you never know.

I say that because you can't really prove that infinity exists or that anything is infinite

Hmmm...I'm just thinking, wouldn't TIME be able to go to an infinite number? I mean when everything ends, like life ends and space just somehow blows up or spontaniously combusts (?...what that means, I dunno - sounds good :) ), won't time still be going? I mean say everything and everyone no longer exists, time doesn't stop. It'll just keep going...and going...and going until, well, until nothing - it'll never stop.

I dunno, maybe I'm blabbering nonsense, but that's just what came to my head.

Greg

[pwaring]

The problem is that you cannot prove something to be infinite, you can only assume that that is the case. You can prove something isn't infinite by finding the end, but how can you prove something which goes on forever?

In any case, time is merely a theory if you think about it. :D

[SarinMage]

it equils existence.

[Easeupyo]

ok, you can't prove infintiy exists, try to prove that zero, nothing, true nothing exists.
it doesn't else i wouldn't be here to make this post.
time is only a human concept, when humans are gone, time will be gone.

[SarinMage]

zero is an object that discribes the concept of nothing, therefore, zero, itself, exists. You cannot have nothing, in saying something is nothing, you give it a name and properties, creating it an object. True nothing cannot exist, or at least we cannot truly preceve it

[garathjax]

Easeupyo says that time doen't exist, I disagree. If time didn't exist then every thing would happen at the same moment (I was going to say at the same 'time' but thought better of it :rolleyes: ) which would mean you were born, lived and died in an instant (but then without time there would be no instants would there) so you couldn't have posted the message that I just read.
Some famous scientist (I can't remember which one) spent most of his life proving this fact by treating time as another dimension and his work layed the foundatin for much of Einsteins famous theory (you know that one involving E m and c).

P.s. I believe that zero times infinity is 0 cause no matter how much of nothing you have you still have nothing (however it's not something I'd like to prove).

[SarinMage]

nothing doesent exist though, and there is no time, its only our way of preceving the passing of events, everything IS happening at the same "time"." Time exists only in that which gives something time.

PS ----- Einstien wasent always right.. he said nothing can go faster then light, yet we made that happen (i dont remember the link to the article, but i believe it was posted here once)
jsut because hes always been around doesent mean her right... thats why its called THEORY and not fact

[souleman]

It's 0. That is the only answer that makes sence. As you said, you can never find infinity. So infinity is only a concept. If you have 0 fives, you still have 0. If you have 0 infities, you still have 0. If you have 5 nothings, you have nothing. If you have infinite nothings, you still have nothing. That is the only way that it even makes any sence.

Actually, we can have 0. I currently have 0 apples in my hand. That is the difference between 0 and infinity. 0 is not a void, null is a void. I don't have the character available right now, but it is the phi looking character in math. You can't have null, but you can have 0, or atleast a lack of something.

I don't think time really "exists" It is a concept, not a thing. Then again, what measurement does truly exist. There is no such thing as a mile or a kilometer. They are concepts used to allow people to just an amount of space between two objects that do exist. A gallon of water is still water, not a gallon. I can't posess a gallon on its own. It has to be a gallon of xxxxx. So xxxxx exits, gallon just tells me how much of it exists.

[debwalin]

Not really saying that I disagree, but what about the passing of days and seasons. That is time. There is a passage of something everyday, whether you want to call it time, or apples or squares. It doesn't matter what you call it I guess, but something does happen. You wouldn't have the same seasons every year, with the same basic weather patterns and conditions at approximately the same time. Not to mention the position of the sun and the phases of the moon.
Ahem, before I confuse myself, I shall stop. But I hope I have made what I am trying to say relatively clear. And by the way, I also put 0, because if you have nothing, it doesn't matter how often or how long or how many times you have it....it's still nothing.....I think :confused:

[Flibberdy]

The answer is 1, and here's why I reckon it to be. 1/0 = infinity, so 1/infinity = 0, and hence 0*infinity =1. However, 2/0 also = inifinity.. so we got a problem there...
As for time, before the big bang, time didn't exist, so I'd assume after the "Big Crunch" time will once again cease to exist. However, the Big Crunch relies on the existence of vast quantities of Dark Matter, and also on the ever-elusive Higgs Boson (the So called "God" particle), so maybe the Big Crunch will never occur, and the universe will be expanding forever...

[lord_darkside_x]

since you cannot have multiples of infinity

i am not positive on this... but i have read in some real high level of calculus about having multiples of infinity.

try to prove that zero, nothing, true nothing exists.

in theory, this has been proven already... you can mathematically prove it. if i have a chance i will try to look up the proof

1/0 = infinity

no i think it is undefined... besides this... in exceptionally high forms of calc you can solve numbers being divided by zero.

but using your logic...

1/0=infinity
2/0=infinity
3/0=infinity
....and so on

all numbers(infinity) divided by zero = infinity, then infinity * 0 should equal infinity. that is not what i believe however. i believe it equals zero simply because if everything and nothing were multiplied, nothing could remain.

as for the time debate. "time" in the sense that there is some movement of the earth around the sun and that day and night pass exists... but "time" in human interpretation (hours, minutes and the like) is just a measuring device. just as inches is. even if there were no inches something would still have length. same with time. if humanity ceased to exist there would still be rotation of the earth around the sun. there would just be no one to measure it and dubb it time. it would still psas in the same way. time is just a convenient way to measure it.

[ZeroOne]

I'd also say it's Zero (or One ;)). :)
I would be more interested to know what's infinity minus infinity... Is is zero or minus infinity?
Other infinity thing... You know if you have got an equation like x>=3, so the result is a group of numbers, [3,infinity[ . [ because infinity is not a number that could be included... x>3 would be ]3,infinity[ and "x>= 4 AND x<=8" would be [4,8]. Don't now be confusing these with the irrational numbers like (0,1) which is i, these are groups of numbers... Sooo, I was just wondering what would my maths teacher have said about a group like [3,infinity-1] ... :)
(Although it's an irrational number which is in use only in improbability physics... You have read the HHGG, haven't you? ;))

[SarinMage]

think of it in a less mathmaticall way. Mathmatics are somewhat limiting. If you take zero to be nothing, a state of non existence, and you multiplied it by infinite, all your going to get, is infinite, because, your consistentantly multiplying it now. infinite never ends, therefore the infinite*0 becomes an endless loop of infinite*0. That creates an Existence. Its not something that dissapears or gets bigger, it just continues in the loop of Infinite*0."

existence im defining as all there is, all that can be, all that will be, and anything else i can say to include all rational adn irrational ideas.

existence= Infinite*ANYTHING, zero being no different from any other number.

[nabylbt]

true that 0*A =0 anything is 0 but if you look at the line above the definition there should be something like if A is a real the big fency R that you see in all normal math books...

the answer for sure is impossible since infinity is not a real ....(in case some of you don't know, numbers are classifed into categories: real integers natural primes ..... some don't belong to any category like pi, e0 and others that don't even have expresion for like infinity)

let's try to proove that the statement 0*I=0 is wrong by absurdity:

if 0*i=0 => 0/0=infinity... simply not possible since there ARE NO WAY YOU CAN DIVIDE NOTHING BY NOTHING AND GET PLENTY !!! not in my book ....

lord darkside there are 2 kind of infinty and they are positiv and negative that's it
here are the simple rules of addition:
(+i)+(+i)=(+i) obviuosly....
(-i)+(-i)=(-i) .....
for the cross one depands how you get to that operation and the rate of increase of the functions you are using thus you could get all possible results ... a number:+/- infinity....


if you are interrested in this stuff i'll give you a real example of an infinite function having a asymptotic behavior to infinity while having a finite area beneath it .... think about it a while ....

sarin sage mathematics are limited to those who can't use them properly .... numbers can say anything you want when you want it
try this 1+1 = ?
2 wrong 10 binary ..... ie first rule of probability numbers alone don't mean anything ...

[SarinMage]

im not talking in mathmatical terms, is what im trying to say

[lord_darkside_x]

if 0*i=0 => 0/0=infinity...

so.... 1/0 =0 coorect... so using your line of reasoning.... 0*0 should then = 1..... but it doesn't... ALL NUMBERS TIME 0 EQUAL ZERO... rational, irration and the like. oi agree.... infinity is not techinically a number but a symbol of eternalness... but if you had infinity nothings... or eternal nothing.... you would still have nothing.

[lord_darkside_x]

if 0*i=0 => 0/0=infinity...

so.... 1*0 =0 coorect... so using your line of reasoning.... 0/0 should then = 1..... but it doesn't... ALL NUMBERS TIMEs 0 EQUAL ZERO... rational, irration and the like. oi agree.... infinity is not techinically a number but a symbol of eternalness... but if you had infinity nothings... or eternal nothing.... you would still have nothing.

lord darkside there are 2 kind of infinty and they are positiv and negative that's it

this i know you are worng on as well.... in college calculus, level 4 i believe... they discuss the "types of infinity" not just positives and negative.... many mathmeticians, including einstien, discussed the types of infinity....

here are a list of two types of infinity... but i believe there are four.... i'll see if i can find the others

There do exist different types of infinity. This distinction is sort of hard to think about until it's explained. There are enumerable infinities and then there are non-countable infinities. The sequence of natural numbers is an enumerable infinity; if we sat down for an infinite length of time we could count from 1 to infinity. The number of points between 0 and 1 on the number line, however, is uncountably infinite. There is no way given an infinite length of time we could count the points. Where would we start? Pick a point and I can find another one closer to 0 than the one you picked. We say that uncountable infinite items are much larger than countable infinite items. The number of points between 0 and 1 on then number line is much greater than the size of the set of the natural numbers. I hope this helps; infinity is a hard subject to nail down.

Here's a quote you might enjoy:

"Infinity is like a stuffed walrus I can hold in the palm of my hand. Don't do anything with infinity you wouldn't do with a stuffed walrus."

-Dr. Fletcher
Va. Polytechnic Inst. and St. Univ.

(i.e., don't use it as a number)

[krang]

I'm going with 0, but it would take a really long time to calculate ;-)

[SarinMage]

as im going to say again. im not using the mathmatical values for anything.

0 "zero" is something that DOES exist because we give it a name. it is SOMETHING, but its not entirely nothing. the only true nothing is that which is not defined and cannot be concieved. the moment it is concieved, it becomes SOMETHING.

if you take the idea of 0 "zero' and multiply it by the infinitness of existence, as defined in my above post, (because it is the only true infinite) then you will recieve an infinite calculation, thus creating infinite existence

i hope i discriped that correctally, ugh

another note
nice sig krag!!!! :):)

[lord_darkside_x]

if you take the idea of 0 "zero' and multiply it by the infinitness of existence, as defined in my above post, (because it is the only true infinite) then you will recieve an infinite calculation, thus creating infinite existence

i understand what you are saying... but i think you are not thinking about it properly. zero does not equal pure nothing but it means none. if you have zero apples, you have none. if you have zero shoes, like wise. in math 0*x can be read as.... zero x's (x being any number) or x zero's. so in other words, if i have zero ones, you still have zzero. if you have zero "infinite existences" there is still zero. but regardles.... we weren't discussing true zero and true infinites. and even if we were, if you use true infinite (a concept that i am not so sure even exists... i guess it is more of a belief not a law.) then you have to use true zero... another thing that people are unsure of it's existence. not that it matters. cause in math or in real life.... if you have zero of anything... you have zero. iif you have any number of zeros (1,2,infinite) you still have zero. this is the only way to think of it. the law of zero presides over the law of infinity

[SarinMage]

i agree with you... but.....


but if negitives exist, then that must means that zero is not nothing.... you cant have less then complete nonexistence.

[lord_darkside_x]

but if negitives exist, then that must means that zero is not nothing.... you cant have less then complete nonexistence.

i never disagreed with that. i was saying that zero means none or nothing. you are talk about a whole new level of zero that really doesn't matter in the discussion. zero doesn't mean complete nonexistance (that is what i am thinking you are saying) it is a symbol for having none. just as one is the symbol for having none "true zero" on the other hand is a term coined by some theorists and is a philisophical term for complete nothing. this has nothing to do with the term zero. (as used in everyday life)

We start, then, with nothing, pure zero. But this is not the nothing of negation. For not means other than, and other is merely a synonym of the ordinal numeral second. As such it implies a first; while the present pure zero is prior to every first. The nothing of negation is the nothing of death, which comes second to, or after, everything. But this pure zero is the nothing of not having been born. There is no individual thing, no compulsion, outward nor inward, no law. It is the germinal nothing, in which the whole universe is involved or foreshadowed. As such, it is absolutely undefined and unlimited possibility -- boundless possibility. There is no compulsion and no law. It is boundless freedom.

-Charles S. Peirce, "Logic of Events" (1898)


you can find more theological ezplanations of nothing at http://www.nothing.com

more explanation on two of the types of infinity: http://www.mattababy.org/~belmonte/Publications/Books/CSaW/5_infinity.html

[SarinMage]

oo ill have to read that stuff, thanks :):)

thanks for not flaming me and shit, usually i get bitched out for talkin about this crap, lol

[lord_darkside_x]

lol... i know the feeling.... i try to not ever flame anyone.... it works better.....

[Rewandythal]

infinity times zero is infinite zeros... simple as that.
If you think of infinity as eternal and zero as nothing, it's eternal nothingness, but it's NOT eternal nothingness, cause Zero is something - its a word. So it would simply be infinite zeros, or, cancelling down, Zero.

[Pecosian]

Well you can prove anything with algebra, I managed to confuse my calculus teacher..
He stared at my problem for like 5 minutes before he realized what I had done:

0*1=0 so...

Let:
a = 0
b = 1

a*b = a
b = a/a
b = 1

In this case it proves correctly, but what I did was impossible with real numbers. Lets use b = 2:

Let:
a = 0
b = 2

a*b = a
b = a/a
b = 1

Therefore: 2 = 1

See? How about:

1/0=INF

So...

1 = 0*Inf...

Using any number substituted for 1, we can prove everything is equal to 0 if Rewandythal's argument is correct, and I agree with it.

[txwebman]

I say zero and here's a little explanation (if you understand it):
http://mathforum.org/dr.math/problems/knobler.two.3.17.97.html

[lord_darkside_x]

1/0=INF

So...

1 = 0*Inf...


also 2/0=INF so...
2=0*INF.... thus this can go on forever. excluding 0/0

this is a completely illogical line of reasoning. reason 1 being that anything divided by zero is not infinity it is undefined and if you divide by zero in upper levels of calculus, you get a number. not infinity. so really what you should say is....

1/0=Undefined
so...
0*undefined =1

second, let me repeat something for everyone.... think through this logically.... what does the statement 0*inf mean? it means ZERO infinities, or infinite ZEROES. if you have zero of something, it is zero and if you have infinite zeros, it is still zero... so just by deductive reasoning the answer has to be zero.

[jcmcb]

Wow, this is the most mathamatical discusion on AO I have ever seen! Congrats to all!

but your all wrong... as any true trekkie knows the answer is Mango....

(think Q)

[SarinMage]

bah, i still say absolutly nothing cat exist... and just the fact that we think of zero as something that doesent exist, makes it exist infinitly, again i say though, IM NOT THINKING IN MATHMATICAL TERMS.... strange way of thinking, yes... but it makes some sort of sense, if i could explain myself well enough,

(everyone elses ideas i very feasible aswell, and i agree with most of them as probable answers, but im choosing to look at the problem in a little bit of a different way.)

[Easeupyo]

If you have one, and take away it's opposite, you'd have twice as many. 1 - -1 = 2.

If you have a rock, and take all the water from it, will you have two rocks??? No...
Even if you throw it into the sea, there is still that rock somewhere.

The romans were smart people, smart enought to know that there is not nothing. There's something. Somebody, sometime after the Romans, made up nothing. Creating the concept of 'zero'. 'Zero', thought, is not nothing, it's not one of anything. -1*a = 0, a != 0.

Math is all arbitrary rules made up by people, for no better reason than it looks good and is easily provable by it's own laws. Many mathematicians suffer god coplexes, many non-mathematicians do as well. It's the idea of creating a rule, that all has to follow, and the subsiquent belief that everything will follow it. Infinty is all of everything, L*e.

So... 0, -1*a time infinity, L*e is -aLe.

The lesson: don't drink and do math, or anything else.

[SarinMage]

again i say, im not using mathmatics.

[Easeupyo]

It was brought to my attention that some rocks break, or explode durring the winter because of water inside. So water is not the opposite of rock. Bread is.

You cannot deal with anything and not use mathematics. That's plain stupidity. Even if the only math you use is to say that all that there is everything. . . 1 = 1.


Since you're so set on not using mathematics, which really is impossible, say all that you can, all that you will, and not use one number, one idea that is also a mathematical priciple...


Maybe you should stop looking at things so differently, or atleast admit that for all it is, it's the same, just explained differently.

[Negative]

I've been asked to close this thread a couple of days ago already... I always have to look at the topic to see what exactly this discussion was about again...

Anyway, IRC seems the place to be for this kinds of discussions those last couple of days...
For those of you who don't know where to go, here it is again:
irc.antionline.com
services.antionline.com
antichat.res.cmu.edu