Existance

[Matty_Cross]

As I sit here, in my pitiful existance, reading fortune as I usually do *linux does have such fun games*... I does come across this interesting quote, spewed forth from the mouth of this wonderful toy...

A man said to the Universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the Universe,
"the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."
-- Stephen Crane

Now, last night, myself and a few peoples got very drunk, and discussed many things, such as love, religion and *shudder* politics... all of which, for some reason *not sure why*, verged on the topic of humans...
me with my view that human kind is nothing special, that we are all just a bunch of self serving fools, blinding ourselves with our delusions of self importance, causing human kind to walk around with an bart simpson attitude *I AM SO GREAT, I AM SO GREAT, EVERYBODY LOVES ME, I AM SO GREAT* banging our proverbial pots and pans....

and conversely, we had the oposition, who was quite disgusted by my outlook on life, the universe and everything... stating that we are indeed 'special', that there is some greater purpose in life *although they weren't able to tell me why they believed in this greater purpose..*.. that there was something we were intended to do...

but my problem with this is that, if I am to conform to such a belief, that a greater power has a purpose for me.... something I must acomplish in my life time... does that not make me a puppet.. .does it not make you a puppet?

I'm starting to ramble, so I'll just get to the damn point...

Do you believe.. that your existence... is meaningful?

[thesecretfire]

It has meaning because you live in it, you exist in it. It is up to you, not others to decide wether or notyour life "has meaning". You might look at someone who seems to be "wasting their life", but if they find meaning in what they do, isn't that enough? I think it is, I mean, you don't have to cure a disease affecting millions to have a meaningful life.

[Matty_Cross]

That's a very good answer secretfire...

I should've made my question a wee bit clearer... I was asking whether you *me points into the crowd* find your existance to be meaningful...

I see people every day, who when you ask how they are, they say still alive *in a none too happy tone* or *my personal favourite* I'm awake, what more do you want....

in the group I was with that night, I noticed that of all the people who were there, 1 of them believed that their existance had a meaning....

What I'm trying to ask is that do you feel that you have a purpose, that you actions will actually mean something, that people will notice the things you've said, done and accomplished in your incredibly short lifespan...

I find that personally, I have none of these things... I don't believe that being human makes me special, if I was a mouse, I'd be the same.... I know that when I expire, like meat left out in the sun, never reaching my 'best before date'.. that it will have amounted to nothing... all the dedication one puts into what they percieve to be their purpose in life, amounts to nothing when ol' Grimmy comes and takes you to see the boss....

I was really wondering... how many other people feel this way? and their reasons for such feelings...

[hot_ice]

Well, I don't really believe that there is someone of a greater power looking down on us to make sure we do what they want. I think it's just life and is evolving slowly in no planned order. We exist and we live our lives how we want them, affected by what we do and what other people do, I don't think it has been previously planned.

I watched 60 Minutes on TV just about 30 minutes ago and they were talking about the risk of meteorites wiping out millions of people. Anyway, when they said how billions of years ago, the dinasours (and nearly all other life forms) were all wiped out by a meteor, it made me think. Was life evolving in the wrong way, so someone of greater power said, this isn't what I had planned, I'll erase it all and start again, see what happens? Hmmm...it's interesting, but I mostly thing that a meteor simply hit earth by chance and that it had nothing to do with the supernatural, or some higher power or anything like that.

I somewhat believe that EVERYTHING happens for a reason. Let me give you an example.

Example: When I first got my car (about one year ago), I parked it at uni, came back and it was getting towed away. It got taken to the council car pound and to cut a long story short, it cost me $330 altogether. Anyways, to make myself less pissed off and upset, I just said to myself that it happened for a reason, such as, maybe if I had gone home (rather then to the council to pick up my car) I would have had a car accident or something. So I always try to put a positive spin on it.

Well, I dunno if that had anything to do with your topic Matty, but aw well, I blabber on a bit, don't mind me. :)

I'll just end it here, I forgot what the topic was...

Greg

[rcgreen]

This debate seems to come out of the
theory of evolution. When Darwin first
published his theory, Christian dogma was
the unstated assumption behind most
people's view of their existence.

The debate broke out immediately,
with critics saying "If you teach people
that they evolved by random chance,
they will draw the conclusion that life
has no meaning. It is a philosophy
of despair."

That's my opinion. Your feeling that your
life "has no meaning" is a product of your
education in evolutionary dogma.
:cool:

[detector]

- If one thinks he is worthless and nothing but a fancy blob of advanced protoplasm + time and luck then one is going to act out that belief system.
rcgreen - you said it better anyway.

[chsh]

Interesting discussion Matty!

I'm sort of on the fence on this one, and my answer would swing either way depending on how I interpret your use of the word 'special'.

They way I see it is that I'm here, and if I spend all my time worrying about whether or not I'm doing something correctly, I'm never going to actually do anything productive. I live, I experience, I try to help others when I can, and I try and CREATE a meaning for my life. I personally don't think that any meaning is just handed down to you making you 'special' (in a sense). I think that a meaning for my life will come from my living it, not from my believing that I'm special.

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=222069#post476417) by hot_ice
I watched 60 Minutes on TV just about 30 minutes ago and they were talking about the risk of meteorites wiping out millions of people. Anyway, when they said how billions of years ago, the dinasours (and nearly all other life forms) were all wiped out by a meteor, it made me think.

That is factually false. Maybe nearly all LAND-BASED life was wiped out (which it wasn't btw), but water life would have been far less affected and there is far more of that than there is land-based life.

[Alcatraz]

I think, scientifically, we do have a purpose. Why else would we have evolved? Survival is the purpose of all life forms, but there's not really a logical reason for that. I mean, who cares if there isn't, wasn't, and never will be life?

But Matty, that wasn't really your question, was it. It's do humans have a purpose, one that's different from other animals. I think we do, why else would we have the mental capacity that we do? But what is that purpose? Damned, if I know...

[thesecretfire]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=222069#post476458) by rcgreen
[B] "If you teach people
that they evolved by random chance,
they will draw the conclusion that life
has no meaning. It is a philosophy
of despair."
Dispair? If everything is happening for a reason, then it leaves limited possibilities. If god exists, then it means that there is always something controlling life, making it flow one way or another. Take away god, and the universe becomes filled with infinite possibilities, an inconceivable number of paths and come into existance and die before anyone knows that they're there.

Why are you here? Who are you? Interesting questions, because it's impossible to give a good answer. God is many people's answer to the question of who and why, but for me, this wasn't enough. Although "Why not?" provides an interesting line of thought, you may never be able to answer why. The search can make you a better person, just as religion can, and I think that this, at least, is enough of a reason to try.

[preacherman481]

Yes, Matty, I feel my Christian faith gives my life meaning. The Bible teaches that we are on earth to glorify God and to enjoy him. I believe (based on the Bible's teachings) that God created us to have fellowship with him. One day when the Lord Jesus Christ returns, those who have placed our faith in him will be able to most fully understand and enjoy the purpose we were created for. To me, being a Christian give my life meaning because I can see where it all began (God's creation) and where it's all headed (the Second Coming and the resurrection).

[Matty_Cross]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=222069#post476492) by chsh

I live, I experience, I try to help others when I can, and I try and CREATE a meaning for my life. I personally don't think that any meaning is just handed down to you making you 'special' (in a sense). I think that a meaning for my life will come from my living it, not from my believing that I'm special.



chsh, I follow a similar course of action as you stated, and I have done so for quite a long time.. However, recently, I've been plagued by an apathy of sorts, in wondering I'm doing the things I do... and not caring that I find no meaning in it... I am daily presented with paths I can take, as we all are, from the simplest thing of getting out of bed, to what to say to the depressed person with gashes in their arm *this one isn't a daily experience, but it is a recent one*, and my attitude of late has been simply, I don't care...

Why? I'm finding existance meaningless is way too simple an answer to give I've realised...
so I'm going to switch it round, and as SecretFire spoke of, I'm going to ask Why... Why do I find my existance to be meaningless... I will not look for an answer in a god... but nor will I look for it in another person.. I might look for the answer in my shoe, but I doubt it....

I shall return..... and maybe I'll have an answer....

/me takes up the pondering pose...


'To err is human, to moo is cow'

[Mankan]

Do you believe.. that your existence... is meaningful?
I'd say that my existence is meaningful to me and that is really all that matters.

If you think about it, it does make sense.

I do not think however, that we are put on this earth for some divine purpose.

[SarinMage]

existence itself is jsut a series of of randominities (is that a word?)
nothing we think or do really has any affect on what is to come... things are going to continue on the same way they have been forever. (this is on a grand scale, not individualistic lives)

weather it be god or non god, scientific or speculative, it will continue this way for all eternity.

[owen76]

I think of my cat because my cat does not care about her existence, yet she continues to get up in the morning like she has an eternity to live. The only meaning that matters to her is when's dinner and shut up so I can nap. We just happen to have the knowledge of our own death and over contemplate it.

[Dr Toker]

History will repeat itself.

I think we have a purpose. As a matter of fact I now I have a pupose in my life. I know if I wasnt born the whole world would be different. There is a reason for everything happening.
We are put through trials and tribulations to make us stronger. So we can share our knowledge with others. So we can share what we have learned. To help others.

We are here to be kind to one another. To help each other behappy. After all, "The Persuit of Happiness" is our Human right. However I think Humans take happiness and confuse it. We confuse it with Joy. Happiness is the temporary good feeling we get when things seem to be going good. When we are content. Joy is a "happiness" in your heart, when life around you falls apart. The Joy I have in my heart will never leave me. It's a choice you have to make every day. You have to wake up, roll outta bed, and say " I choose to be happy, no matter what."

Me? I get my Joy from knowing that God is watching over us all. I am joyfull that I will never have to be alone because God is always here for me. I am joyfull because when life kicks me in the teeth I can trust God to take care of me.And he does.

This is my life, not yours...in no way am I shoving God in your face. I am simply stating the Joy that seeps from heart as a direct result of Gods hand on my life.

Existence? Its over rated.

[preacherman481]

Sarin, I beg to differ with you there. Not to get into a debate over the existence of God, but I'd like to make a clarification about part of what you said: "Whether it be [God] or [non-God], scientific or speculative it will continue this way for all eternity." From a Christian point of view, it will not continue on in the same way. The present world is heading for a terminus-- the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. At the point it will matter distinctly whether we have lived or not. And it will matter what we have done with our lives. If we have served God we will receive a reward. What we have done with the gifts God has given us will come under His scrutiny. Looking for this day and preparing for it gives life some of its meaning.

[Dr Toker]

You must spread your AntiPoints around before giving it to preacherman481 again


You rawk man

[debwalin]

Hmm, I would say I get my satisfaction in existing from a small circle of family and friends. I know absolutely I make a difference everyday in the life of my husband and my son. I have friends that make a difference in my life regularly and hopefully I do in theirs. I think that is all we really can ask for in a normal everyday existence. Yes it would be nice to think that I made some huge improvement in the world, and changed life for the whole planet....but I have serious doubts about that!! ;)
It may not seem like much, but if you can make the world a better place for one person, just by smiling and making them happy, you have done your job in my opinion. I feel like our purpose in existence is to be here together, helping one another in whatever way we can, until we die. We are here to take care of each other. :D

*going off to join a group hug somewhere now....I feel all warm and fuzzy inside*lol

[SarinMage]

preacherman->>

basically what im trying to say, is that no matter what anyone believes in, its basically the same thing, jsut interperated differentally. so long as we remember to take care of each other, and make sure we arent selfish, everything should be fine in the end.

[detector]

Existance has a purpose. You just have to find it. Keep going matty, but it's not in your shoe, I already looked ;)

[thesecretfire]

Detector, why do we have to have a purpose? Why is it necessary, such an essential thing?

[Flibberdy]

As organisms on this earth we have one essential purpose. To Procreate. I think the Bible even says that we should go forth and bear many children. If you need me, i'll be fulfilling my life purpose >:)

[thesecretfire]

So if you're unable to procreate due to age or illness, you should just kill yourself because you have no purpose?

[preacherman481]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=222069#post479638) by thesecretfire
Detector, why do we have to have a purpose? Why is it necessary, such an essential thing?

If it isn't necessary, many humans spend an awful lot of time looking for one. Books have been written on it. It's like we have an inner desire to make sense of our world and our place in it.

From "Solid Living In A Shattered World " by William H. Hinson (pp. 124-25): "In one of George Moore's novels, he wrote about the peasants in Ireland during a severe famine. Many of the people were given jobs building roads with primitive equipment. For a time, the people worked with their picks, shovels, and wheelbarrows. They were so grateful to have employment, to have a reason to receive their bread, that they whistled and sang as they labored. After a time however, they discovered the roads they were building ended up in dreary bogs and swamps. In reality, the roads they were leading lead nowhere, and with that realization, a tremendous change came over the workers. Their cheerfulness disappeared. They became unhappy and disgruntled. They became difficult to deal with. All of the whistling and singing disappeared. The observation was made that, 'Roads that lead to nowhere are hard to build.'"

How do people make it without a purpose in life? How do we make it if we don't have something to look forward to? How do we make it without meaning?

[Flibberdy]

People's insistence on searching for a meaning comes from our innate lack of self confidence, or simply the fear that we don't know where we're aiming in life. I prefer to live my life to the best of my ability, and keeping to basic principles of what I consider "good". I happen to base these principles on typical Christian morals, but that's just because of how i was raised. I believe that only once we're done on this plane of existence will we ever be able to see what out purpose is, and whether we achieved it. So why don't we all just live by the principles: treat other's with respect, play nice, and don't worry too much, everything will fall into place.

Oh, and BTW. My Previous post about procreation was just an attempt to add a leetle bit of humour to quite a serious topic, so I wasn't insinuating naything about those who can't procreate due to illness/old age. ;)

[preacherman481]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=222069#post481087) by Flibberdy
People's insistence on searching for a meaning comes from our innate lack of self confidence, or simply the fear that we don't know where we're aiming in life. I prefer to live my life to the best of my ability, and keeping to basic principles of what I consider "good". I happen to base these principles on typical Christian morals, but that's just because of how i was raised. I believe that only once we're done on this plane of existence will we ever be able to see what out purpose is, and whether we achieved it. So why don't we all just live by the principles: treat other's with respect, play nice, and don't worry too much, everything will fall into place.

Oh, and BTW. My Previous post about procreation was just an attempt to add a leetle bit of humour to quite a serious topic, so I wasn't insinuating naything about those who can't procreate due to illness/old age. ;)



So I hear you saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that really the way to get through life is to not worry about meaning, but to do the best you can and make your own way as best you can. But how does one deal with the tradgedies of life? And if we can only know our purpose after we die, isn't it too late then? And if we don't know the purpose of this life, how is it that we will know it after we die?

[gold eagle]

what in the world is this thread all about?

[owen76]

How do we deal with tragedies in life? You don't need a book to tell you how to do that. Just a little confidence and maybe support from fellow human beings.

[KorpDeath]

It has meaning to me and my family. That's what i am concerned about.

I've stopped trying to figure out how and why I got here...it's a waste of time. I'm just trying to figure out what to do now that I am here.....

[gold eagle]

KD - well said.

[jcmcb]

I find that the search for meaning in life is, in itself, meaningful. My search for truth about existance have provided me with many fulfilling answers....

And besides, as a great Chinese Philospher once said (and I am paraphrasing here):

Whats wrong with being useless?

[gold eagle]

Would you know which Philosopher that was? Curious myself.

[volcomgnu]

I believe people look for a greater being to give their life purpose. But for myself, I believe my life does have purpose. That being to help others and to enjoy life. Whether it be by designing a car for ease of transportation or whether it be developing space travel. I also believe that their is a greater being, but I don't know if I believe in him because I believe he is "real" or if I am just trying to fill a void in my soul.

[jcmcb]

I want to say it was Lao Tzu (founder of Taoism I belive), but I could be wrong. I know its not a confusican idea...

[Pecosian]

Your life is both the most meaningfull and meaningless thing you have. The former to you and the latter to everyone else in the world. So whether existance is meaningful, I guess it depends on your point of view.

[gold eagle]

Maybe we need to define what we mean by meaningful. :) That sounded funny somehow.

[detector]

"purpose to have purpose", forget who said that but it sounds right.

[gold eagle]

beware the alliteration agents.

[Eglaelin]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=222069#post483217) by gold eagle
Maybe we need to define what we mean by meaningful. :) That sounded funny somehow.


The meaning of life. As far as I, and several others, see it -- is to make the world a better place. You can have this purpose whether you are Christian, Pagan, Moslem, Buddhist or Atheist.
One of the best books I have read in a long time is : Ethics for the New Millenium , by the Dalai Lama. He does a most excellent job of seperating Ethics from religion. I feel, that you can use this book no what your religion is. The principles are applicable to anyone.

A co-worker once asked me if I believed that God created humans or evolution created humans. I told him that for me it did not matter. When he asked why this is what I told him. IF GOD created man then you are the result of a great creation, and you have a great responsibility. On the other hand, if you are the result of evolution, you are the result of a long line of cause and effect (a great deal of work) and you have a great responsibility. Either way you go you have a great responsibility.

And what is that responsibility? To end suffering as much as you can. We have the potential for healing a great deal of pain. We can feed the world, we can make sure that people have clothes to wear and a place to live. And it is up to us. No one else will do it if we do not. God (however you see it) is there to show us it is our job. We are our brothers keeper. Now what are you gonna do with it.

The moment is at hand.

[SarinMage]

jsut live for yourself, and let everone else live for themselves.
dont do anything that will make it harder for someone else to live
give as much as you take, if not more.
just remember that it doesent matter whats after we die.. so long as you lived happy and made others happy aswell.

whats wrong with that??

[Juridian]

I believe that life has whatever meaning we give it. I also believe that we don't get that meaning from any one place....I think the meaning to our lives comes from the sum of our experiences in this world and our own feelings about those experiences. Some find their meaning in their faith, others of the same faith find no meaning there due to other life experiences.

I view my own life like a drop of rain falling into a pool of water (the water being the other people). I come into contact with soo many people, and effect those people in certain ways. This contact may change the way those people think on about some things, the way they talk, they way they speak, the way they feel. You never know. Then those changes spread, like the spreading circles of waves from the drop in the pool, effecting other people that know those I had contact with. Some of those people may be affected by my ideas, some won't. This is the difference I make in the world and eventually the spreading waves will dissipate and the drop will be forgotten.

Some people are bigger rain drops than others, and their ideas/changes are remembered longer.

When it comes to the randomness of events in our lives, I believe that our perception of this randomness all depends on what level we are viewing those events. If you take each event individually it seems random. If you look at those events from a higher level I think you can start to discern a pattern in the way things work. One thing leads to another, and another, and so on. If enough of the variables are right then history repeats itself.

Anyways, enough ranting for me.

[detector]

thesecretfire - you ask why does life have to have purpose. The inner cities of the world are full of ppl without it and see how empty their lives are. Someone in one of these threads posted about irish road workers and the effect of purposelessness (yaa) on them. The main point is purpose is directly related to hope. No hope, no "joie de vivre".

[gold eagle]

Eglaelin - good post.

[Alexzel]

In my humble opinion, life in it's very essence has a purpose - To help us grow............ evolve into something better. The situations and the people we come across to, are not without meaning at all (online or offline). There's always a reason, a "because". Moreover, I would like to share some things which I have proven in life. Some important things we have to bear in mind though:

1) We are always open to change.
2) We take things open-mindedly. This is important, specially when dealing with complicated situations. We should go out of the four corners of the box, and see things objectively.
3) We try out best to accept things....specially....those which cant or are atleast hard to be accepted. This is hard, but we have to atleast try and better yet do it as well. There are moments when we can't accept reality. Sometimes, we have to go through things the hardway, and when we get through...........the feeling of pain nor bitterness subsides and is replaced by bliss within ourselves.


---------- A blessed day to all :)

I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again. ~ William Penn

[Alexzel]

Originally posted by Juridian 03-29-2002 09:55 AM I view my own life like a drop of rain falling into a pool of water (the water being the other people). I come into contact with soo many people, and effect those people in certain ways. This contact may change the way those people think on about some things, the way they talk, they way they speak, the way they feel. You never know. Then those changes spread, like the spreading circles of waves from the drop in the pool, effecting other people that know those I had contact with. Some of those people may be affected by my ideas, some won't. This is the difference I make in the world and eventually the spreading waves will dissipate and the drop will be forgotten.

Greetings Juridian,

Good day to you! I do agree with what you said that people whom we come across to in our life, can affect us, the same as we affect them as well, one way or another. Morever I would like to share my insight to what you said as well. I think that the length of time at which these people stayed with us may be a brief moment, like just passing by; or may be a long time....years and sometimes........they stayed with us forever. One thing is for sure though, it is never the quantity (length) of time at which these people stayed with us.....but rather it is more on the quality of how we spent those times with them. Another thing, be it a good or a bad experience ------- it all goes down into one thing: "Learning".

Lastly, thanks for sharing with us a part of yourself, on how you see and feel things in life. Keep-up the good posts :)

------- A blessed day to all!!! :D

Whenever you have the chance, express what you feel. For you will never know...when you no longer have the chance to do so and would only be left with regrets accompanying you in the dark........

[gold eagle]

alexzel - you win the postive posting award. I can't remember you ever posting something depressing or negative.

[Alexzel]

Greetings Gold eagle,

Thanks for the comment. However, I am only human and thus, I also do have a bad side. One thing I bear in mind whenever I post though: "To only stick with the issue being discussed at hand and would refrain from dragging in non-related matters."

---- Arazel

[Alexzel]

Greetings Matty Cross,

Good day to you! I would like to share my insight in regard to your post.

Originally posted by Matty cross: 03-17-2002 05:02 PM
but my problem with this is that, if I am to conform to such a belief, that a greater power has a purpose for me.... something I must acomplish in my life time... does that not make me a puppet.. .does it not make you a puppet?

In life, there are numerous roads to take. We are not "puppets", because in the end the decission would still be coming from us. Thus, "Free-will" is present. We are not forced to take a road which we never have opted to take. Whenever we face a situation, it boils down to one thing--------we make a decission. That decission may result into something favorable or something which is the opposite of it. Whatever the result, you need to face it and the cycle goes on. You face situations again, you make decissions..........and as you move on.....you *GROW* :)

Have a fun!!! :D .............. Arazel
_______________
A blessed day to all! :)

[RogueSpy]

I would just like to say. . .Alexzel. . . ur doing a wonderful job on posting. Keep up the good work.

[Matty_Cross]

Alexzel,

More often than not, I find that 'free-will' is , for most parts, an illusion.
Free will, as I see it, in essence, could only be attained if you were totally alone, as our interactions with others bends our perspective on the world. This is unavoidable, unless as stated, you are totally alone (or possibly really really stubborn).

While one may believe that their action was done by their own free will, if you closely examine their actions, you generally find that another force has influenced their actions. This can vary in its effects, as with everything, but even the slightest influence of an outside force (outside being regarded as a being that is not oneself, rather than say nature or time) can completely change the persons actions which they have performed by their own 'free will'...

I may be a bleak pessimist.. but I always seem to notice that, when people are 'making decisions', the decisions have, more often than not, already been made for them.. they just haven't been informed yet (and in most instances, never will be, because they believe that they did it by their own free will)...

As for *GROW*ing... well, there's nothing wrong with that... I'm quite a fan of growing.. and once I learn how to stop, I'll like it even more... I don't like being forced to grow when I don't want to.... it leads to uncomfortable situations....

[gold eagle]

RogueSpy - man that script is hard to read. Reminds me of my teen years.

[RogueSpy]

Hehe. . . . I think im gona start using this. I like it. ;)