Random question

[Keisha]

The background:

My local newspaper published a front page story on Valentine's Day. Apparently our local mall had held a kissing contest. I thought it was a cool article, read it, and went on with my life. *chuckles* I thought it was nice to get the paper and finally -not- see blood and death on the front page.

A few days later an editorial appeared screeching about the horrible perversion on the front page, berating the paper for corrupting the youth of america. Mildly baffled, and wondering what the author of the editorial was smoking, I re-read the article more carefully. Apparently the people running the contest had decided to be *gasps* openminded. They dared to allow a same-sex couple to enter.

I ignored the first letter and went on with my life, until a few days later. Another letter appeared, castigating the first writer for her un-Christianlike attitude, taking the basic attitude, "Thank God for atheism." I found it amusing, clapped, and again went on with my life.

Two more letters appeared, taking the tune of the first, but quoting the Bible in proliferation, making wild accusations about corruption and perversion. And then finally I got annoyed.

It does take awhile, but when I get annoyed, I get hostile. I answered with my own letter. I actually had to speak to the editor of the paper to verify it was really mine. He didn't want to put an innocent person's name on it when they published it.

Now I'm not sure if the point of this post is me asking a theological question or a moral one, but I'm curious for everyone's opinions of this anyway. What would you girls/guys have done? I'm going to post my letter as a response to this post. While I find offending people one of the joys in my life, I at least want to do it fully intentionally, so the post will be posted as a spoiler.

-Keisha

[Keisha]

I would respond to the letters of those people criticizing the wonderfully upbeat article the Chronicle published earlier this year on Valentine’s day. I was curious as to the fuss about it, and dusted off my bible to do a bit of research. I’ll share what I found. "...I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the light of this sun." This bit of advice can be found in 2 Samuel 12:11, encouraging not only the rape of women, but public rape. I found another beautiful passage in Psalms 137:9, which reads, "Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!" Last I looked up basic ethics, murdering defenseless children was wrong in pretty much everyone’s books, though apparently not here. The passage I found to be the greatest gem however, was found in Numbers 31:17, "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Perhaps this passage explains the clergy’s belief that the altar children are an escort service? It certainly permits the rape of children. For those who would point out that I have quoted only the Old Testament. I offer these words of Jesus, found in Luke 14:26, "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." I have read psychotic cult manifestos that didn’t read this harsh. I would question the intelligence, nay the very sanity, of anyone who uses this vile book as anything other than a paperweight. The few passages it contains with even the slightest value do not require intellectual slavery to a corrupt power-hungry pedophilic clergy. They can be found in any faith, or require no faith at all to adhere to. There are several who wrote squalling about the “evils” of homosexuality, and merrily quoting passages from this abomination to prove their points. I would ask whether they only use the passages they like, or if what I have said here is indeed true to their beliefs. If these truly are the beliefs they wish to force-feed others, may I offer a one-way ticket to Afghanistan? I’m sure the Taliban would be glad for the volunteers, for you sound little different then they.


-Keisha

[Anirak]

in 2 Samuel 12:11, it is not encouraging rape, but describing his punishment for killing a woman's husband. It doesn't not say his wives will be raped, but that they will turn on him.

In Psalm 137:9, it says "happy are those who grab your babies and smash them against the rocks." If you read the bible, you would know that before babylon was destroyed, there wasn't 1 single person who wasn't of evil in the town. This is why the town was destoryed. They also did evil things to other towns.

in numbers 31:17. It is they punishment to the people of midian. They turned against God, and worshipped the idol baal. When you do something wrong, you get punished, it's that simple.

and the fact that you think homosexuality is something to just shrugg your sholders at, is just plain sickening.

so you say, and i quote, "I have read psychotic cult manifestos that didn’t read this harsh. I would question the intelligence, nay the very sanity, of anyone who uses this vile book as anything other than a paperweight"

I am 13 years old, and I have figured all this out. Next time you decide to post a bunch of lies, try your best to get something to back them up.

[Kindred69]

Well I would like to post a purely personnel opinion on homosexuality and religion then post a question to anyone whom chooses to answer. Both of these might not sit well with some of you, but then I am merely one person, and have a right to my own opine, as I have free will (which as god created everything he in logical progression created free will and in so my opinion)

Firstly on homosexuality, god let man make his own choices gave man free will to express how man see fit. It also stresses forgiveness to other yet some act seam not be forgivable, surely if you condemn man free will by passing judgement you are trying be god, because is it not god place to judge all mortal sins? In so you judgement and do not allow forgiveness then you yourself are taking he place of god, and no creation of god should presume to do such.

Now my question please feel free to PM or post a response. If Adam and Eve where the very first 2 human upon this earth and in so the mother and father of all human kind. Be this true there is an irony, the bible condemns incest, meaning that every sexual act upon earth is a sin, meaning your god condemn the human species never to reproduce as to do so is a sin. Also the irony that in haven the virgin daughter is held in a higher position than her mother because the mother has had a sexual act. Form this god created reproductive organ that where not to be used, created a species that should die out if you are never to committed a sin. In so god making it a sin to reproduce. Taking this logic to an extreme as now I’m moving beyond my own beliefs but would like to pose this thought. If god created human in his own image, and also though the logic I stated earlier condemns reproduction, but allows sexual feeling and created these also, then surly under his scheme of thing homosexuality is greater than heterosexuality as we where never meant to reproduce. Also why great the act of forgiveness if you where never meant to sin? Your thought?

Kindred69

[Anirak]

I was reading your post, and i got about 1 line down and got really bored, so I quit readin it. Mabye you should shorten it, and take out the lies, and i would read it...

[lostit44]

Good for you Keisha I`m glad that you posted the letter here. I agree with most of what you wrote. The people are very quick to gross out someone about what they are, but their preists can destroy the lives of countless children and all they say is "Oh hes a good man it must of been the children who caused him to stray". And has anyone noticed that most of the victums are young boys. So Anirak how can you spout off about what the bible says and gross out about homosexuals when the preists are homosexuals and are doing much worst. These are suppose to the leaders in moral standards. To me this is sicker than some couple who love each other having a kiss big deal so they are gay so what. Is it harming you NO and at least they are not out ther abusing children. Befor anyone throws stones they should make sure that they dont live in glass houses. My 2 cents worth.

[lord_darkside_x]

NOTE: Some of the opinions expressed below are not my opinion just a relay of facts and/or statements expressed in the bible.

Firstly on homosexuality, god let man make his own choices gave man free will to express how man see fit.
but the bible also forbids homosexuality "a man shall not lay down with another man..."

as for the incest thing, there are many possible interpretations and such about this saying that God made things work out. (some people think that the incest law wasn't into effect until later and so on)

Kiesha, i respect the fact that you were willing to take a stand for what you believe in, and i agree that those people where extremists. they did need to be dealt with. i agree a hundred percent but the one thing i disagree with... you took the verses way out of context to support your point. but i respect the fact that you tried to fight back.

[shkuey]

but the bible also forbids homosexuality "a man shall not lay down with another man..."

The bible also forbids sex for purposes other than procreation. This includes masturbation, oral sex, anal sex, sex with a prophylactic, or any other type of sex that doesn't involve a penis ejaculating unhindered inside a vagina.

I dislike it when people only agree with parts of the bible that suit their opinion. (I'm not directing this to the person who made the original quote, it's just a general statement.)

[Anirak]

actually, in every Christian book i've read about sex, it does not say that maturbation is wrong. I am not sure about the rest tho.

[shkuey]

It doesn't specifically say anything about masturbation, that I know of, but it does forbid sex for purposes other than procreation. Last I checked, that requires two people.

[Anirak]

sorry, i didn't know what procreation meant. I'm only 13!

[cwk9]

I think the days of using the bible to justify certain view points is over; there are just so many different conclusions form the same words. Also the bible is about 2000 years old and has been translated from its original language so picking specific phrases to justify a view point is just fishing reasons. There’s nothing wrong with quoting the bible but if it’s the sole point for your argument then you should consider adding a little logic and good old common sense if you hope to convince anyone.

Keisha is right the media focus to much on the blood and death side of the news.

[lord_darkside_x]

The bible also forbids sex for purposes other than procreation. This includes masturbation, oral sex, anal sex, sex with a prophylactic, or any other type of sex that doesn't involve a penis ejaculating unhindered inside a vagina.

i am aware of this, but that was not what we were talking about so i didn't think it was necessary to bring it up, the bible also forbids murder and stealing and dishonoring of parents, but that has nothing to do ith the convo either. i know you weren't directing the second part at me, but i was just mentioning what the bible said about homosexuals. hence the disclaimer...

cwk9... i agree with you to some level. i believe some things were lost in translation and so on. but i also think it is a shame that you need to logically convince people of your statements on religious arguements... because the bible requires some faith. besides, be careful how much logic you use, esp in faith arguements.... because with logic, you can disprove anything. ( i even met some one who convincingly disproved gravity and our existance on earth, just to prove the point)

[preacherman481]

First, I'm wondering where in the Bible sex for purposes other than procreation is forbidden. I have never seen a single verse that says this :confused: . Could you please give me a specific chapter and verse where it says this?

Second, I agree that some parts of the Bible can be interpreted in different ways. That's why there are so many different denominations. What unites different groups of Christians isn't agreeing on everything; it is our common ultimate allegiance to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Third, while some parts of the Bible can be interpreted in different ways, some parts are also very clear. I feel that homosexuality is one of these. The Bible clearly states that it is wrong. Please don't shut me off at this point. Keep on reading.

Fourth, homosexuality is not the only sin. The Bible says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Does God's law condemn homosexuals? Yes. But it also condemns all the rest of us too. Don't miss that. We are all lost unless we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, the One who died for our sins and restores our relationship with God. We either accept the penalty for our sins or we trust that Christ has done that for us. It's that simple.

Fifth, The Bible also teaches that true freedom doesn't come from doing whatever we want. That is anarchy. How would you like to live in a world without any laws where people did whatever they want to do? It would make driving on a highway a lot of fun wouldn't it? What I'm getting at is that God's laws are not meant to imprison us or hurt us. A parent tells a child, "Don't put your hand on that hot stove. You'll get hurt." Is the parent trying to hurt the child by putting a prohibition on her behavior? No, the mother or father is trying to help his child and keep him or her from pain and suffering. It's the same way with God. He is a Father who loves his children. If God says not to do something there is a reason for it. Faith means trusting God to know what's best for us.

[delstar]

Alright. Where do I begin with this one? First off, let me start by saying that i'm not in anyway christian. I've been Wiccan for 4 years now. Also, I tend to have a bicurious sexuality.
First off, let me point out that the bible was written by the hand of man, and, even if 'inspired by the hand of god', would probably hold several influences of the person writing it. Also, the bible has been translated so many times throughout the ages that most of what it says now is complete gibberish. You try it. take any sentence in Hebrew, translate it to latin, and then translate that into English, and see how off it gets.The bible makes a good history lesson and a source of poetry, but beyond that, it doesn't hold much water with me.
Second, why is it when someone uses a quote from the bible against itself, most people will say "Oh, but that's from the Old Testament.", and then turn around and use a quote from there to defend their anti-gay views? Hey, I thought the 'rules' in the Old Testament didn't count anymore?? Hypocrites....

[debwalin]

I agree with Preacherman here....the bible does say clearly that homosexuality is a sin, but it also says that any type of fornication is a sin, and that includes the heterosexual sin of premarital sex, and I don't think a lot of people who jump on the bandwagon of homosexuality being a sin want to consider that. If you sin, you sin. There is no sin greater than another in the eyes of God....so that little fib you told to your boss/mom/wife/friend puts you on the same plain as the homosexual that you put down....might want to put that in your pipe and smoke it.
I am a Christian, and I don' t think that homosexuality is right. However....let ye without sin cast the first stone. So before you go condemning other people for the way they live their lives, you might want to take a look at your own.

I am not aiming this at anyone in particular here....just my point of view.

Keisha--I also believe that you MUST speak up for what you believe is right.

[SarinMage]

Anirak>>

your only 13, you dont have any ideaw about the realities of the world yet. I at myself at age 19 have no idea... but i know enough not to blindly believe what someone tells me at some cult-like sermon. DOnt base your life on a pathetic storybook, it will get you nowhere but inside the biggest Cult in the world, Christianity.

(jsut to clarify things... i have a personal grudge against christianity due to my experiences in catholic school, being berated by the school and church because i diddent agree with the "christian" opinion on everthing.)

[preacherman481]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=223418#post487378) by delstar
Alright. Where do I begin with this one? First off, let me start by saying that i'm not in anyway christian. I've been Wiccan for 4 years now. Also, I tend to have a bicurious sexuality.
First off, let me point out that the bible was written by the hand of man, and, even if 'inspired by the hand of god', would probably hold several influences of the person writing it. Also, the bible has been translated so many times throughout the ages that most of what it says now is complete gibberish. You try it. take any sentence in Hebrew, translate it to latin, and then translate that into English, and see how off it gets.The bible makes a good history lesson and a source of poetry, but beyond that, it doesn't hold much water with me.
Second, why is it when someone uses a quote from the bible against itself, most people will say "Oh, but that's from the Old Testament.", and then turn around and use a quote from there to defend their anti-gay views? Hey, I thought the 'rules' in the Old Testament didn't count anymore?? Hypocrites....


1) Both the Old and New Testaments teach against homosexuality. It isn't a matter of one contradicting the other.

2) Do you know Greek or Hebrew and have you ever translated in these languages? I'm asking, what is your experience or training to back up the statement s you make about the difficulities of translation?

3)The Bible won't "hold water" with anyone unless they have a relationship with God. I believe in the Bible because I believe in God. The Bible only has authority with me because I have a relationship with God.

4) Please be very careful with the word "hyprocrite." We can all turn out to be hypocrites in one way or another." How many environmentalists use products made by company that pollute the earth? It's not a nice word,and it should be used very sparingly.

[LoggOff]

EARTH TO EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD! this is a security website, not some debate website ment for letting religus people attack homosexials cause they are public about there preference....

[preacherman481]

I hope anyone doesn't feel that I'm attacking them. I'm just defending my point of view. It's not my job to judge anyone. That's God's job. He will do it much better than any of us can. Only God knows people's hearts and only He has all the facts. Also, this is the general chit-chat forum, and people post everything in here from jokes to rants, etc. But perhaps if Ennis or Negative are around they might wan't to confer and move this thread to the Cosmos forum.

[souleman]

Gee, this should have been in the Cosmos thread. The original post asked if Keisha was right to send in the letter. Well, yes. If you feel that greatly about something, then take action. I disagree with what you wrote, but that is not what you asked.

You can take ANYTHING out of context and use it to justify what you want to. Its kinda like statistics. I can make a Pentium 100mhz look like it runs at almost the same speed as a P4 2 Ghz, if I make the correct graph. It is all in how you view it. Everyone has their own beliefs. Just like Keisha felt the need to write in condeming the people who wrote before, those people felt the need to condem the original act.

[rcgreen]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=223418#post487385) by LoggOff
EARTH TO EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD! this is a security website, not some debate website ment for letting religus people attack homosexials cause they are public about there preference....

The forum is called GENERAL CHIT CHAT

Give people a little slack, even if you don't like the
direction the discussion takes.
I, also, am sometimes uncomfortable with other
people's rants, but we are all computer enthusiasts
here.
:cool:

[Dr Toker]

I think if Christians should be allowed to voice their opinions and spread their belifes so should anyother group, with the exception of national security of course. This IS America after all. We can live pretty much however we want and not be persecuted by the government.
However people are different. People, expecially old Christians, are self rightious, cinicle, and judgmental. Which makes me want to puke. Even though someone could live their life for God, following His word, still succomb to such a Pharases like sin. Jesus started on them at like age 8.

The Point:All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So, that means we all screw up, some of us screw up worse, but in through the eyes of God, its all the same.

Question:Do I think they should have allowed same sex entrys into this public mall?
Answer: If you live in the state of Texas there is a law prohibiting acts of homosexuality/sodomy, so until they changed that law I dont think they should.

And personally, if I had kids walking around that mall, I wouldnt want them subjected to seeing such sexual perversion. However all that means to me is that they must be educated sooner. Educating your children is they key. About everything.

[Sick Dwarf]

I think that any religon should be able to spread there word. I don't believe in one but I do think that you should respect anyone who does. Even if it's an other religon then your own. The people who commit suicide attacks and kill for there religon haven't really red there holy books good.

[Dr Toker]

[i] so that little fib you told to your boss/mom/wife/friend puts you on the same plain as the homosexual that you put down....might want to put that in your pipe and smoke it.
[/B]

* Puts that in his pipe and smokes it.


:)

[gstudios]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=223418#post487417) by Sick Dwarf
I think that any religon should be able to spread there word. I don't believe in one but I do think that you should respect anyone who does. Even if it's an other religon then your own. The people who commit suicide attacks and kill for there religon haven't really red there holy books good.

Well said.

This whole thing, turns me red with anger. Why? Simply put. Why must people need to have a book to tell them what is forbidden and what is "ok"? I think you should use your own judgement and experiences as your guidelines for the game of Life.

Back to the orginal post:
If people think that their children are being corrupted by a story which was reported in the newspaper, dealing with a "kissing contest" and "same sex", they need to get a reality check. HELLO!? Your child WILL be dealing with that. Perhaps not tomorrow, nor the next day, or even a few years down the line. But eventually they WILL deal with that. It is not bad, to be exposed to it. It does NOT hurt or kill anyone. (well I take that back, a few years ago some poor gay man was killed) I for one, would love to see anything else, than Murder, Killings, Suicide plastered all over the NewsPaper's and News Shows.

I think Religion is the Root of All Evil. Not the religion itself, but the people who follow it. Want an example? Easy. Crusades? Oh, you want something more current? Well ok, Muslim extremists. Perhaps you want a bit of Christianity. Salem Witch Trials anyone?

[Disclaimer: This post was not directed to anyone specifically, do not take offense to it, because it was purely an opinion]

[JP]

Greetings All:

First off, this thread belongs in the "cosmos" forum. But, that's beside the point:

"wouldnt want them subjected to seeing such sexual perversion."

Urgh, nothing worse than a religious person. The analogy of you being a flock of sheep is a good one. Blindly being led around by 2,000 year old bullshit created to control the uneducated masses. How fitting.

As for homosexuals: I hate to tell some of you Jesus-loving-hippies this, but AntiOnline is owned and operated by homosexuals. As such, we won't tolerate gay bashing in any way shape or form here.

This isn't exactly the forum for this type of discussion to begin with. We're supposed to be a security site, remember?

BTW: I added a pride flag as the newest site smilie. Feel free to use it ::flagprid

[SarinMage]

nice job JP!

[Brad]

woooohooooooooo! :flash: ::flagprid

[KorpDeath]

::flagprid ::flagprid

You did say use it.

For those of us who are secure with our sexuality, same sex kissing is not sexual perversion or anything even remotely related.

As for the contest: More power to them.

All this coming from a straight AO user.

As a close friend of mine said once "Forward, never straight."

[preacherman481]

JP,
I hope you haven't taken what I have said as "gay bashing." But I do feel homosexuality is wrong. It is a sin, and it's not what God intended. I don't think God hates homosexuals. Christ died for homosexuals the same as he did for every one else. I don't think the gospel is "2000 year old bullshit." I think it can change people's lives. I don't think I am uneducated. I have a B.A. degree, and a Master of Divinity degree from Emory University. I think for myself. But yes, I do consider Jesus as my shepherd and myself one of his sheep.

[JP]

Greetings:

Well then, I will gladly burn in hell, if it does turn out to exist. I'll never apologize or ask for forgiveness for the love that I feel towards my life partner, nor for the ways that I express that love. ::flagprid

Besides, if hell does exist, and I do get sent there, I'm just the type of person that might be able to take it over, and make it my own! muahaha!

:firedevil

[Louie]

Let's think about this, If God created all people, then he created homosexuals, so he better except their asses in heaven w/ all you other low lifes. There are far worse things then being a homosexual, such as a wife beater, drug dealer, or child molestor!

[JP]

Or a chat nazi!

[gstudios]

PreacherMan481: Why do you think it is wrong? And dont' give me "Because god didn't intend for people to be gay" crap.

They are people like you and me. Short, tall. Skinny, fat. Black, White, Yellow, Green, Gray, Yellow. Sure they may be the same sex, but i bet their love for one another would match any straight person's love for their partner. (of course it varies depending on how much they truly love each other, but you get my gist) . . . What is so wrong about that?

Time to "think" outside of the physical body.

[souleman]

Ummmm, is that Brad that posted. Holy shit. Thats what I was talking about in my last message. When you feel that strongly about something, like Keisha did, you take action. Kinda like Brad actually posting his first and only post in this thread.

And like I said, I won't get into the endtire gay/religious discussion, because that should be in the cosmos thread, not here. So....

[JP]

Greetings All:

Ok, I moved this thread into the Cosmos forum where it belongs.

[Eglaelin]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=223418#post486913) by Anirak
i

in numbers 31:17. It is they punishment to the people of midian. They turned against God, and worshipped the idol baal. When you do something wrong, you get punished, it's that simple.



Actually the people of Midian were not Christians that turned against God to Worship Baal. Baal was a god worshipped before the coming of the Judiac tribes. The Bible refers to anyone who would not fall down and worship Jehovah as worshipping false idols. The earliest references to Jehovah were to him as a war god. The Judaic tribes were involved in warfare against other cultures and tribes from the get go. It is common propaganda in war to call the others unholy, or inhuman to justify acts of cruelty. Just ask the survivors of the holocaust.
The problem with this section of the bible is that is glorifies and justifies the deaths of others for religous reasons. The people, including all children who were not female, under 12 and virgin were put to death. Giving the state of warfare in those times how many of the females, do you think were virgin after the battle. Rapine and degradation were standard techniques in battle,and still are.
When it comes right down to it, the ethical problem lies in killing others in the name of god. By that standard the terrorist who performed the 9-11 bombing were just as righteous as the Jews in the bible. And before you go on saying that Christianity is the only religion, remember the Taliban would say the same about Islam.
What we need to do as a people is forget the divisions that keep us from acting correctly toward each other. Every religion on the planet (except for Satanism) has a similar core. Be kind and good toward each other. Treat each person as something holy and good. IF you treat them that way then they will eventually become that way.
The true way to see if you have lived the proper kind of life is to ask yourself a question. Is the world a better place for my existence?

[Faqt]

Hmmm...this is quite a thread, with many points. First off l would like to identify myself as a non-religous individual. I was raised to believe in god and respect him, but not to identify him through a church (god is not people, church is people, and it's far to easy for people to say one thing and do another.)
The point in this thread that means the most to me is the view that so many people take on homosexuality....my best friend is gay. Guess what folks, he didn't CHOOSE to be gay. He didn't wake up one morning and think "gee, I think I'd like to be different and make myself a target for all the ignorent people out there who feel like condemning me, maybe I'll even get lucky and get jumped an beaten for deciding to be this way!"
Nope, he didn't make a conscious decision to be this way, he was born (created by god) with this aspect already in place, spends every day of his life dealing with it the best he can, and would change it if he could. He can nomore decide to be straight then a straight person can decide to be gay. Taking that into consideration.....how can gay couples be accused of perverting out youth?
The responsibility for children falls to (ready for this....) THE PARENTS. If your child is young enough that you think seeing gay couples will effect them, then why the hell are they at a kissing contest? Perhaps there are too many parents willing to pass off responsibility of their children. I was raised by parents that encouraged me to come to them with questions, and when I did so they would take the time to explain to me, not only their views, but all views, and then leave it to me to form my own opinion.
I would like to thank my parents for giving me the gift of acceptance, for it has made my life richer in many ways. I hope when I have children I can grant them the same gift.
Thats what acceptance of others is, a gift not only to you but to them as well....because no matter how different a person is they still have feelings.
For those of you who think homosexuality is a sin because it states so in the bible take any sentence in Hebrew, translate it to latin, and then translate that into English, and see how off it gets this is an EXCELLENT POINT.
I'm not saying don't believe, I'm saying don't be ignorent, and don't condem others for being different than what YOU think they should be. You are not God, and it is not your place to judge the value of any other human being.
Okay, that said...what are peoples views on homosexuality as a genetic trait? I know several individuals who are gay and have gay parents (one of whom was adopted and raised by straight parents and didn't know anything about his biological parents until he'd already discovered his sexuality).

[Brad]

Im perfectly happy being gay. I wouldnt change it if i could. Im sure you wouldnt hear a straight person say " i wish i was gay". :bigsmile: ::flagprid

[Kezil]

a few thoughts on the matter at hand:

1. (for background) I'm non-denominational Christian, and I'm not going to believe in any specific version of it until I read the hebrew old testament, the greek new testament, the arabic Koran (I think that's the one with Allah). I am also a scientist at heart, so I will rarely believe totally in anything without definitive proof, question everything, and will alter my view on (provably valid) new evidence

2. Prove to me that your religion is true. Use everything you can, because you will probably need to. If you want, you could consider it an attempt to win a new convert if you want. (this includes my own religion)

3. For those who like to bash the bible in its entirety, think about this: an extremely large number of historians and scientists (even those who don't believe) consider the bible one of the most accurate and complete histories of the ancient world in its region(s).

4. (In correlation with #3) The bible has a strong historical, archaelogical, and scientific base (discounting the truly religious parts of it). In fact, even the ark's(the one that held the ten commandments) powers have an entirely plausible explanation: the instructions describe a large capacitator. Also, many of the places mentioned have been unearthed/discovered, and other archaelogical artifacts give evidence of the events in the bible (I believe there are Roman records mentioning Jesus' persecution/death). Most of the world has records (in one form or another) of the Great Flood, at approx. the same time the bible says it happened.

5. The translation errors from hebrew/greek to latin to english have likely mutilated the original text of the bible. Translating languages involves a large amount of interpretation, as different cultures rarely have words with the exact same meaning. To add to that, the translators were trying to fit it into a rather strict pattern (poetic verse with old english). For example: moses may not have parted the red sea, the true translation is the sea of reeds. (by the way, the parting, along with the plagues, was likely due to a tidal wave from a large volcanic eruption in the mediterranean sea and natural occurences disrupted by it)

6. Look up the bible codes in google (and make sure you read both sides of the argument)

7. Anyone else notice how Islam/Muslim contains large parts of the Christian bible contains large parts of the Jewish old testament?

8. No offense intended, but I find that the Catholic religion is filled with BS rules created by a power-hungry church. If anyone can show me good reasons for many of the rules and practices they have imposed, (at standards less than #1) I will respectfully retract this statement.

9. Don't think about what the bible says about gays, what does it say about how to treat them?

10. As part of my studies in science, I have come across some rather interesting information about how many personality traits (including homosexuality) can be in part(not in whole) attributable to genetics. Interestingly, the more older brothers from the same mother a guy has, the more likely he is to be gay. In fact, each older brother increases the probability by roughly 1/3. (this is attributable to an immune type reaction to the (male) baby in the (female) mother's womb, that increases with each successive male, decreasing the masculinisation of the brain (you see, babies are in fact parasites, and try to take over the mother's body)).

11. Why does this seem to be a largely Christian discussion? Is it because Christians are more prejudiced than others? probably...though I'd like to see some from other religions speak their mind (atheists not included)

12. The Muslim/Islamic religion was (when it was created) much more accepting than Christians have been the majority of the time they've been around. Mohammed actually told them to be tolerant of the other religions.

13. Supposedly, the hebrew torah has been so faithfully and accurately copied since it was first written down, that only 7-11 characters maximum have changed. I think the difference between the current version and the dead sea scrolls is only 0-3 characters.

14. I think this is enough for now, please post your thoughts on this, TIA

[rcgreen]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=223418#post487565) by JP
Greetings:

Well then, I will gladly burn in hell, if it does turn out to exist. I'll never apologize or ask for forgiveness for the love that I feel towards my life partner, nor for the ways that I express that love. ::flagprid

Besides, if hell does exist, and I do get sent there, I'm just the type of person that might be able to take it over, and make it my own! muahaha!

:firedevil

Life is quite short. Each of us will go, alone, to our destination.
We will all discover, by personal experience, what lies beyond.
As long as you are confident to face that journey, I am satisfied that
I have fulfilled my debt to my fellow man by pointing you to the
gospel "as I understand it".

As I understand it, "the book" is reliable. You can read it at your
leisure, and interpret it as you please, but I do invite you
to Read it for yourself

[debwalin]

Faqt--I want to answer your question about the genetic predisposition toward homosexuality. Well, actually I don't want to answer it, because I don't have an answer. It's one of the most confusing issues there is to me. I don't know, and I don't understand.

Nope, he didn't make a conscious decision to be this way, he was born (created by god) with this aspect already in place, spends every day of his life dealing with it the best he can, and would change it if he could. He can nomore decide to be straight then a straight person can decide to be gay.

I agree, I don't see how a person would choose to have a lifestyle that opens them up to any number of degrading and unfair stereotypes and falsehoods. I don't claim to understand anything about it, and I don't know what I would do if the situation were put upon me.


9. Don't think about what the bible says about gays, what does it say about how to treat them?

I also completely agree with this statement....you never ever have the right to judge someone else's lifestyle.

The responsibility for children falls to (ready for this....) THE PARENTS. If your child is young enough that you think seeing gay couples will effect them, then why the hell are they at a kissing contest? Perhaps there are too many parents willing to pass off responsibility of their children.

Again, I agree completely. I am a parent of a six year old son, and I am constantly monitoring what he sees and does to whatever extent I am able....I think this is a whole other can of worms, though, and could have it's very own thread...lol

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't understand homosexuality from the biblical perspective. I don't think it's a choice....I think you are born what you are, and you can't do anything about it. My perspective as a Christian is to NOT JUDGE the way another person lives their life, and to do the best I can to live life the way I understand it to be right. I don't understand how God could create homosexuals, and then condemn the lifestyle. So, again, I think the best thing that can be done is to live an open-minded, compassionate life, and to treat others the way you want to be treated.

11. Why does this seem to be a largely Christian discussion? Is it because Christians are more prejudiced than others?

I really hope not....I try not to be, because that is NOT what is taught in the bible.

Gee this got really long on me all of a sudden....sorry, but I hope I've accomplished expressing my feelings on this subject.

Deb :D

[angelic_ky]

I was, and still am, brought up to accept everyone for who they are, no matter how different from me. So I have no problems with people being gay. The bible teaches to love ones neighbour as you love yourself (Luke 10:27) so you should accept someone for being homosexual as you accept yourself for being hetersexual.


PS: i also believe that people are homosexual because they are born that way.

[Dr Toker]

Everybody makes choices, some choose to live a straight life, others live other life styles.
However, I did know a kid growing up named Mikey. While we would go play 'guns' and GI Joe, he would be over at my lil girlfreinds house playing Barbies. I swear I knew this kid was gay before he did. Anyways years down he road we all had grown into rebelliouse teenagers.
And there we were chillin on the corner and I started telling him how I did'nt judge him for the way he was. I did tell him I didnt think it was the right way to live, but I told him if he ever needed a freind I would be there. And I was, when all the little kids found out, they made fun of him in an awfull way, tied him up in the field, and left him out there. (We were a mischievious groupe of kids) Anyways that made me so mad, I found out went out there and untied him fom the tree. We then proceeded to roll a joint. He needed to chill out.

I could really care less, seeing as how some would look down on how I live my life. I use Marijuana, many Christians look down on me for it. But the way I look at it, only God can judge me on that level. Only God has the right to tell me how to live, coming from a fellow man, it lacks integrity, and intells hypocracy. So I leave it in the hands of The Father.

Thanks for understanding, I didnt want anyone to think I was a homophobe simply based on the fact that I am a Christian.

[valhallen]

Before I start my reply properly I would just like to say that I do not look down upon those who have faith or belittle them in any way - much the opposite, as I have no faith I admire those who can believe in something so whole-heartedly - such belief is a difficult thing to sustain without the ridicule that is directed to many people of faith by those who do not have the same beliefs or simply none at all.....

Right sorry about that but I just thought I'd get that bit clear before I started my reply to the question possed....

IMHO christianity has a very good base of ideas - understanbding, love, thoughtfullness, caring for each other - but it is ruined by man's own inputs and interpretations of it....its a good idea ruined by a host of contradictions and power hungry leaders

If people could return to the basics of it I feel that this world could be a much better place.....
I once came across in a wiccan bible one simple commandment which I think can sum up exactly what I mean......
Do what thy will but hurt thee none

Arg! I'm rambling again and not getting my point across >_<; right what I'm trying to say is

Homosexuals are simply showing affection and love for a speacil person in their lives, why should we regard this as wrong? By doing so they do not in any way adversely affect anyone else. The bible teaches of understanding and love for thy neighbour - why should this not apply to a homosexual person?

I hope someone out there understood what I was trying to get at???

v_Ln

[cF_nM]

I respect all of your opinions-some of them I agree, and some of them I don't agree with, and then some I agree partially with.

[E5C4P3]

from what i know u can take 1 scripture and 10 priests and get a different meaning
from every one of them.
i personally do not have a religion nor believe i should. to each his own live and let live.
if u did some research you would find hundreds of religions that were phased out mostly
because one religion believed it was the more rightious one so the other had to be exterminated
for all u religious buffs ask yourself if my family were another religion other than what they are would i be likewise. 8 out of 10 if answered honestly would say yes.
all im trying to say is if you are catholic and your family is also
what if before they were put on this earth instead of catholic chnged jewish or what have you
more than likely you would have grown up jewish or what ever.

I do believe in a higher power but not religion. I do like panthiesm. I have a problem with god having a probvlem gettin money. most of my family are religious and the church they attend post your contributions for every one to see. now tell me that aint a bunch of bull.
by the way they are catholic.
Really all u know is what ur taught plain and simple. so in effect your beliefs are really not your own.

[jcmcb]

I have to say this is a good thread...

I am a Unitarian Universalist (www.uua.org) and I don't tell others how to live, and I except others not to tell me how to live....

If someone is gay, and they want to kiss in public... let em! Who cares? Even if you believe it is wrong (I don't) to be gay (or whatever you think is wrong), you seeing it will not send YOU to hell, so what do you care? I have never understood the obseesion that some people (many christian and muslim [think OBL] but I am sure other religions too) have with the sins committed by others. If I or JP or anyone else want to go to hell, WHY DO YOU CARE? Why is it such a big deal?

Anyway, thats my rant....not directed at anyone on AO, just at certain people in the 700 Club...

[[WebCarnage]]

Four Words:

DOWN WITH ORGANIZED RELGION!!!

[Sick Dwarf]

Gods were created to blaim the unexplainable. God is an invention of man. I live by the facts, I believe when I see. When you have an experience, any experience, you enterpid the facts and you try to find an explanation. I think its just damn lazy to just stop searching and explaining it cause "it was god's will". Religous people are religous because they are told so. Kids are the easyist to bend and break, so if you get the religous part in your childhood, it will have a great effect in your adulthood. If a cristian was raised an islamic, he would be islamic. If an islamic was raised without a religon, he would have none. It's like if you're raised to speak english, you speak english. If you are raised french, you speak french. I just don't umderstand why people don't see that. Again, it's stupid that people stop searching for explanations because they have a default explanation.

About gays, well, I think humans are ment to be straight. It's nature. That's the way mammals breed. Being gay is "unnatural" (DON"T GET ME WRONG, THIS IS NOT MENT OFFENDING). I think being gay is in your head. It's just who you fancy. I think it's possible for a man to love a man, and have sex. I also think people should respect anyone's oppinion, values and partners. But look at the facts, a man has a penis, a woman a vagina. That's the way it is. And nothing can be changed about it. Those to body parts belong together. I've had these kind of discussions with many of my friends (some of them are gay), and sometimes we disagree. But after that discussion they still are my friends. They respect my oppinion and I respect theirs.

About facts, people should be judged individually, judged for they are, and what they do. Not because someone else of the same race, gender, place, size, weight, team did something wrong. Interped the facts. And do it your self, instead of letting someone else doing it for you.

That's all I wanted to say. And JP, HELL OF A SITE!!!

[chsh]

What is wrong with this world? People are so shortsighted and so narrowminded that they cannot see a clear solution to anything.

People have the right to make decisions for themselves, they have the right to be criticised for those decisions. Nobody has the right to try and take those things away. By barring homosexuals from entering a kissing contest, you are taking away that right. Anyone who would see a man's rights stripped from him simply because of a decision he made about something very personal is hypocritical, and should not be quoting ANY holy book, Bible or not.

I don't understand how some of these people can preach being nice to others, then turn around and go against what they're saying. People who do so are no more than idiotic hypocrites.

I find it entirely offensive that someone would complain about another's rights. Racism is racism, pure and simple. Whether it be because your skin colour is black, you're of asian descent, or because of your choice of partner, it's still racist to go about claiming one group is evil.

Think about that next time you decide to scream about a homosexual. How would you feel if someone screamed at you or turned you away because of your religion/skin colour/etc?

Grow up.

[preacherman481]

Sick Dwarf,
Please don't take this as a flame. I hear you, but I disagree. I am a Christian, and I have faith in God. It doesn't stop me from searching or looking for answers. You say, 'I live by the facts, I believe when I see." Let's test that out. Do you believe in atoms? How about electrons and protons? Of course. Have you ever seen one? I don't think so unless you have very good eye sight. But do you believe in atoms and sub-atomic particles? I'm sure you do. But why do believe? Isn't it because it's what you have been taught, and because you're taking the word of scientists who say they have proved these things exist? Yet you say, "Religious people are religious because they are told so." If you look within the ranks of Christianity you will find many different kinds of people. Some will be people who follow others blindly with an almost cult-like submissiveness. But you will also find highly educated and highly intelligent people who have critically examined the claims of Christ and have chosen to believe. Believe me, following Christ does not make things easier on you. Faith is not a license to quit thinking. If you are genuinely following Christ you will continually face questions and struggle with the deep mysteries of life. For example: Why do people suffer? Suffering isn't a hard question for an atheist. An atheist can say:"Well, that's just the way it is. Survival of the fittest. We're all alone in the world and stuff happens. It's all just an accident." But a Christian faces a much harder question: "Why would a loving God let me suffer?" You tell me who has the ready made answers. I am saying that if you follow Christ you will face questions continually. Following Christ isn't about knowing all the answers; it's about following the One who says, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." Jesus is the Answer.

[Sick Dwarf]

First of all, Preacherman, this is not a Flame, it's a discussion and I respect your oppinion. :)

Ok, You're right, I've never seen an atom before, but I beleave that they excist because it's the only reasonable, possible theory about that subject.

Everyone faces the hard questions of life, if you're a cristian or not. And suffering is a part of life, every creature on earth suffers, from muttiple reasons. I think it's stupid to say; "Why would my loving God let me suffer?". It's just the same question everybody asks themselves, religous or not, just like;"Why did my father die" instead of "Why did god let my father die". That god part is just a partial explanation for your question to form a base to search further for awnsers.

I'm not following someone because he comes up with some ways to live and some vague explanations for the meaning of life. I follow life itself and adjust my way of life as I go, as I see what certain actions do for society and other people. I adjust my life to the facts.

Although I do not believe in god, I do think there are other dimensions of life. I don't know if you the book "The Necromonicon", but I've done some reading in it and done some spells. I've seen VERY STRANGE things happen. Things that move by itself, seeing things that aren't there and communicating with people that are long "overdue". The book I have is older then 150 years and has done some strange things to my life. I don't know who decides over the anwsers, or the questions, but that book certainly raised some new ones.

This is a discussion that is going on for ages, and will go on for ages. I think that in the next millenia, people will come and go with theories and religons. This is a discussion that will be won by the one who will give it up last. Not by facts, counter-facts etc. Let's stop this discussion and just say;"Man, that's just fine with me, want a peace of my property?". I think man will know the answers iventually, it's just a matter of time. I respect the fact that you believe in god, and you respect that I don't. That's all that matters.

Cheers, my man.

[8*B@LL]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=#post) by Kezil
a few thoughts on the matter at hand:
13. Supposedly, the hebrew torah has been so faithfully and accurately copied since it was first written down, that only 7-11 characters maximum have changed. I think the difference between the current version and the dead sea scrolls is only 0-3 characters.

i find that to be a VERY interesting ascertion. if you are talking about only a 7-11 charecter change for the torah, then you must be reading it in hebrew, because that is not possible when the text has been translated. however, the MOST interesting part is that you claim that the difference between the current version and the dead sea scrolls is only at most 3 chars...odd seeing as the dead sea scrolls havent all been FOUND nevermind translated yet.


Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=#post) by Dr Toker
Everybody makes choices, some choose to live a straight life, others live other life styles.

i see...when did you wake up and decide "i think i am going to be straight" and, as previously stated why would anybody choose the tougher path through life? its not like it could be physical because a girl can get a guy off just like any guy could(with the exception of a guy on the recieving end of penis-anus intercourse...but that isnt the most common way for gay men anyway) so it CANT be a physical thing. the only logical conclusion that one can come to is that they are attracted to people of the same sex. one cannot controll who they are attracted to so that would take being homosexual out of the relm of being a choice. also, i just love how you brought up the stereo-typical "young kid plays with dolls so he is gay when he is older" storyline. hate to burst your bubble but GIJoe's are just barbie's in fatigues; make of that what you will.

just for the record:
/me != gay.
/me is happily in a 1+ year relationship with my gf.