Are Adware/Spyware and Spam Free Speech [Archive] - Antionline Forums

MrLinus

January 17th, 2004, 04:43 PM

Actually I beliee it is an unlawful search.

That would suggest that the spyware is from the police. I believe you mean unlawful entry (entering a location without permission of the owner). Now that might have a chance in court when you think about it. However, one spyware company I know of got crafty and says in their privacy policy that by viewing their ad you are agreeing to them to install their software. That I have issue with.

This concept of agree to the AUP without being able to read it before using the software makes no sense. This concept has appeared before with software AUPs that were inside the package and basically said that by opening the package you agree to the terms of the software. But in order to get to the AUP, you have to open the package.

To me the law isn't clear on dealing with this. I, as a consumer, am agreeing to stuff before I've had an opportunity to read it? That's not logical (but apparently it's legal).

Relyt

January 17th, 2004, 04:58 PM

Yep, unlawful entry is more appropriate. That's Scary stuff (best keep your Spybot- S & D and Lavasoft up to date) .

In order to agree you have to open the package, but if you open the darn thing, you agree! Interesting, amazing what we call legal now days. Seems like it's all for the dollar.

Thanks,

Relyt

DarkeMaster

January 17th, 2004, 06:12 PM

The reason I asked this question in this particular forum is because I am a senior admin and owner of an ISP. Having dealt with the costly problems these types of programs and advertising efforts cause, I have a first hand knowledge of the amount of money it costs me and my subscribers each month to deal with them. From a networking aspect Adware/spyware is without a doubt the most insidious and costly security problem I have overall. I guess I should be happy that I have to charge my customers for my and my techs time to remove the garbage from their systems but I am not..I feel sorry for the uneducated users who are forced to pay for something they never asked for. And Spam is of course a very costly threat due to the incredible amount of time I have to deal with customers complaint that I am sending it to them because it lands on my mail server..no matter who actually sent it..I spend at least eight hours a week trying to filter it out...It is costly to every IT group and it is a blight on the Internet in general. I do not believe that FREE SPEECH covers any statement or declaration that directly affects the financial situation of another person. It is kinda like the supreme court ruling that declared the right to free speech does not apply to someone who goes into a crowded theatre and yells fire...these guys are yelling fire...

groovicus

January 17th, 2004, 06:52 PM

This is what Amendment I of the bill of rights says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Unfortunately, our founding fathers were not clairvoyant. For instance, when they granted the right to bear arms, they could not foresee automatic weapons.

The First Amendment was created to protect individuals from oppression by the government. Unfortunately, telemarketers and purveyors of spam seem to think that government regulation is a form of oppression.

Oppression is defined as follows:
1. [n] the act of subjugating by cruelty
2. [n] a feeling of being oppressed
3. [n] kept down by unjust use of force or authority

Somehow, I don’t think any of that fits. As a consumer, if I cared to be equally absurd, I would claim “theft of services”. Although usually referenced with obtaining cable services illegally, I think it could be applicable. I pay for my bandwidth to use how I see fit. I can’t think at any time that I authorized anybody to track my surfing habits, or to sell that information. This example is shaky, I admit, but so is the free speech argument.

In the United States, as do many other countries, we have ordinances based on natural law, i.e. murder, rape, robbery. We also have laws banning behavior that otherwise would not be criminal, but society as a whole determined to be wrong. Statutory rape is an example. Generally, sex with a minor is considered illegal (in “civilized” countries). In other countries, sex with minors and even marriage is culturally acceptable. (Iran comes to mind). The legal term is Mala Prohibita, and it describes acts that have been deemed unlawful by the state, or government.

So that brings us back to the original question. Does Adware, Spyware and Spam fall under first amendment free speech protection?

IMHO, I would have to say no, and their argument doesn’t hold water. At best, it is a stall tactic, allowing advertisers and such to continue business as usual. Next, they will be arguing that the government has no right to regulate business. Basically, the name of the game is to exhaust every possible legal argument, all the while continuing with business as usual. When all avenues have been pursued, the companies in question will move off-shore.

But that's just my opinion :D

nihil

January 17th, 2004, 07:45 PM

Hi,

/rant on

I am not an American (you lucky, lucky people) I was born too late :( However the one I like best is the second amendment, when used "appropriately"

If I am in a bar, out on the street, watching TV, listening to the radio or whatever I am either in a public place or CONSUMING A PUBLIC SERVICE (albeit in my own home), I expect to be "advertised to".

If I open my e-mail or just switch on my PC, I am in A PRIVATE PLACE......that is the difference IMHO.............not what the advertisers are saying, but more how they are putting it across?

If you broke into my house in the early hours of the morning to harangue me about your views on the Bush Administration or California Sales Tax, that is when I would be very tempted to exercise my rights under the second amendment?

The point that I am trying to make is that one has the right to privacy, and to "quietly enjoy" (English leagle eagle speak) your private residence. The vendors of goods and services also have a right to a livelihood? You can advertise 120Gb/7200Rpm HDDS @ $10 each to me as much as you like (Even at 03.00Hrs, in my own home.........although some of my neighbours would shoot you) and I shall not complain :D

Perhaps we are all a little selfish/hypocritical here? Hell, my wife really loved that 3GHz processor I bought her for Christmas..........unfortunately the blue velvet ball gown she bought for me did not fit :p

My conclusion is that when I use my PC to go on the internet, that is a "private thing" and should be sacrosanct. If I go to a website with adverts, that is my choice? My mail is private unless I have checked the box which says "tell me all"..........and I frequently do, and have not been disappointed.

I would say that to try to use Democracy and freedom of speech as an excuse for spam or worse is pretty lame?

/rant end.......go to /rant on

Cheers folks

aeallison

January 17th, 2004, 08:04 PM

nihil, I do see your point. I also see that you are at least, a little bit, familiar with the workings of your computer and of the internet, e-mail, etc...

What DarkeMaster is trying to get across is that a lot of his users are very computer illiterate, they, by not understanding the workings of all of this that we DO understand, are taking up precious time to educate, or I assume in many cases, clean his users computers and mailboxes, of unwanted junk that he is being blamed for allowing to manifest on their computers. I see his point all too well as I manage an ISP myself and know all too well what he is going through.

For clarity, DarkeMaster and I have become friends outside of AO due to our similar carreers. We have discussed this topic before over Instant Messaging.

There ought to be some sort of way to stop this legally, without having to spend hours trying to educate the masses on how to stop it at their level. I believe that by using the laws that our forefathers wrote to our advantage is a good thing.

Just my 2 cents...

nihil

January 17th, 2004, 10:08 PM

Hi aeallison,

Please do not get me wrong (good spot, my post was capable of misinterpretation.......UK v's US English I suppose :) ) I have edited it so please re-check thanks.

You should not get adverts anywhere than that at a public place or if you go where it is...............that is all I am saying, and I think that you agree?

At home, at work, or just "murdering a few aliens on the box" is NOT the place?

Hence my reference to the second amendment.........I would just shoot the buggers :mad:

Cheers

aeallison

January 17th, 2004, 10:45 PM

LOL... I kinda thought there was a language barrier thing going on... :umph:

Und3ertak3r

January 17th, 2004, 11:09 PM

I was pleased to see a comment regarding what the 1st ammendment is.. fortunatly in OZ we don't have such a thing.. but many australians think we live in the USA.. And they wrongly believe free speech to be to be able to say what you please to whoever..

As for Spyware/Adware/Spam as beeing an expression of free speech..

Adware: Got bloody nothing to do with free-speech.. that is where a developer of software places an advertising Client program in with their application.. this is to help them recover costs for the development of the software.. that is fair enough.. the client may download fresh advertisements at various time.. that also is Just Fair.. These adware applications some times cause you System to slowdown or become unstable.. That is not Fair to the normal user..
Is Adwre A privacy issue.. NO.. is it a form of Harrasment ..NO.. is it Free Speech.. NO.. is it a System performance Issue.. YES

Spyware: Also nothing to do with Free speech: This is where the Adware Client now activley monitors your internet activities and reports back to the advertising company.. Same issues as adware.. but better (Not)
Is Spyware a privacy issue.. YES.. is it a form of Harrasment ..NO.. is it Free Speech.. NO.. is it a System performance Issue.. YES

SPAM This is unsolicited email/ Junk Mail: Some countries have laws prohibiting the delivery of unsolicted mail.. the "Resident" has the ability to opt out, or even take action against the firm delivering the unsolicetd mail. On the electronic side of things, there are no real or reliable laws in this area. The bigest issue with spam is how the companies harvest the email addresses un like a Snail Mail address they need to be supplied with email addresses either from yourself or from a company you have done business with (supplied an email addy in personal information to that company). Privacy become an issue when companies sell of your information you don't know/they don't tell you what they are selling off.. As for system performance.. the bigest problem with SPAM is the bandwidth it ties up.. your sytem is tied up downloading crap, your ISP's mail server has wasted space tied up with the crap..
Is SPAM a privacy issue.. YES/No.. is it a form of Harrasment ..YES.. is it Free Speech.. NO.. is it a System performance Issue.. NO/YES..

There is my View in a nutshell..

Cheers

nihil

January 18th, 2004, 03:45 PM

Hi,

Good analysis there Und3ertak3r, I would add a bit to the SPAM part though:

1. There are people who run address mining bots on the internet. You do not have to have done business with anyone, just posted your e-mail addy? To get round this I would advise:

joebloggsPISSOFFSPAMMERS@myemail.net or whatever the spambot will just harvest an unusable addy? Intelligent people will know which bit to remove ;)

2. Performance? well I had a young South African mate who was touring OZ, he had friends and family in SA and the UK. Some creep spammed his hotmail account with x million instances of the same spam until it flooded his account and made it useless (hotmail would do nothing for him!)........bloody good job his old man worked for a company I used to (he actually had my old job :) ) So my mate could remember my e-mail addy and I could contact the old man in SA, and get him to use his son's computer to contact all concerned with his new e-mail. Now that is pretty inconvenient, and took two of us some time to fix. Point is, people performance as well as kit performance must be considered? even the time you take just deleting the bloody stuff?

Another thought is that spammers use SMTP relays via other people's resouces.......that is plain old theft of bandwidth IMHO. We have a crime in England called "theft of electricity"...If I could catch a spammer I could do him for that :)
i

So I would say YES it is a privacy issue, because of the addy mining bots, and YES it is a performance issue, if only on the human resource side, and it is either a crime because it is legislated against (the EU have just done this) or it is theft of resources that do not belong to you........park in the wrong place and you get clamped?

Just a few thoughts

Cheers

Richy

January 19th, 2004, 02:06 PM

Wow ! Very Interesting discussion ...

Recently I purchased a dsl connection and the whole problem started, after burning my fingers very badly (I was charged huge amounts for the past 2 monthly bills), found zonealarm for personal firewall, from zonelabs found about pestpatrol, from there I came to know about adware/spyware etc., and finally joined AO. Thanks for the knowledge posted.

After reading the above discussion, I have some questions to ask (it might be foolish also, bear with me)

Is it the customers mistake, not know about the spam/adware/spyware ?

Is it not the ISP's duty or policy to prevent spam from entering the mail server?

It would be more helpful, if I am enlightened by members (jr/sr/modertors)

Thank you

These are the email policy followed and provided in my isp's website (ddsl.net, ie., Dishnet DSL, India).

---
Email Policy

The following policy guidelines are applicable to all the users who are using DishnetDSL mail services:

Only mails from eth.net domain and colocated domains will be accepted at Dishnet mail servers. For this mails should carry From address as username@eth.net or any valid colocated mail domain.

What do they say by colocated domain ?

Authentication is mandatory for both incoming as well as outgoing mails. Un-authenticated mails will be dropped.

They say that all mails are entered through authentication server, but still i get atleast 45 new spam every day. Does that mean, the authentication server is not functioning properly ?

E-mails with attachments size more than 2 MB will not be permitted.

Dishnet allows only certain attachments to be sent through its mail servers. The following attachments are not allowed:

.exe, .com, .bin, .cab, .bat, .dat, .vbs, .js, .url, .scr, .reg, .pif

DishnetDSL Ltd. does not authorize the use of its proprietary computers and computer network (the DishnetDSL network) to accept, transmit or distribute unsolicited bulk e-mail sent from the Internet to Dishnet (eth.net) members.

In addition, Internet e-mail sent, or caused to be sent, to or through the Dishnet Network that makes use of or contains invalid or forged headers, invalid or non-existent domain names or other means of deceptive addressing will be deemed to be counterfeit. Any attempt to send or cause such counterfeit e-mail to be sent to or through the Dishnet Network is unauthorized.

Similarly, e-mail that is relayed from any third party's mail servers without the permission of that third party, or which employs similar techniques to hide or obscure the source of the e-mail, is also an unauthorized use of the DishnetDSL Network.

Dishnet does not authorize anyone to send e-mail or cause e-mail to be sent to the Dishnet Network that violates Dishnet's Terms of Service.

Any mail with recipient list exceeding 10(ten) will be considered as bulk mail.

Dishnet reserves the right to take all legal and technical steps available to prevent unsolicited bulk e-mail or other unauthorized e-mail from entering, utilizing or remaining within the Dishnet Network.

Will the firewall catch unsolicited mail or is it not working properly ?

Nothing in this policy is intended to grant any right to transmit or send e-mail to, or through, the Dishnet Network.

Dishnet's failure to enforce this policy in every instance in which it might have application does not amount to a waiver of Dishnet's rights.

--- END of Email Policy

MrLinus

January 19th, 2004, 02:16 PM

Is it the customers mistake, not know about the spam/adware/spyware ?

Is it not the ISP's duty or policy to prevent spam from entering the mail server?

Yes and no in regards to the customer. Individuals need to realize that the Internet isn't a pleasant place and lots of unfriendly people exist. Only so much can be done by ISPs in regards to adware/spyware. If an individual chooses to visit a site that carries adware/spyware it is at their own risk. Many ISPs hold to the idea that their responsibility is to ensure uptime of the connection and that's it. Beyond that is the customer's responsibility

What do they say by colocated domain ?

Any domains that they host at their site, even if it's your box.

They say that all mails are entered through authentication server, but still i get atleast 45 new spam every day. Does that mean, the authentication server is not functioning properly ?

Depends on what they mean by authentication. If I read it right, it means that the source and destination are legitimate locations rather than meaning the user has logged into the mail server using say Secure SMTP.

Will the firewall catch unsolicited mail or is it not working properly ?

The email policy is I call a CYA policy (Cover Your Ass). If they need to step in and deal with someone they use the policy. Otherwise, they aren't really obligated to stop messages. Check the wording of it. There aren't that many statements that state "We will do such and such". It's more "we may do something". Many ISPs put these in so they can say they have a policy to stop things even if they don't have procedures in place.

Hope that helps clarify somewhat (at least that's my understanding of it -- does anyone else see something I'm perhaps missing?)

nihil

January 19th, 2004, 03:40 PM

Richy,

ADSL is really no better than dial-up..........it just runs faster. You must switch off (power down) when you are not using it, and I would disconnect the modem.

This prevents your system being used in your absence. It also gives you a different internet address each session ;)

You say you have had high telephone bills?..........I suspect you have a dialler...that is a program that lurks on your system and dials up premium rate sites. I would talk to your telephone company..........over here I would get my money back, because they should not be doing business with SCUM like that. Chech, or get, a breakdown of your calls?

You need to get a good anti virus program and keep it up to date ;)

Also AdAware from Lavasoft and Spybot Search and Destroy (you will have to google for these as I do not have the best links for your part of the world) Update them then re-boot into safe mode and run them.........kill anything that they recommend.

I will be writing a couple of tutorials soon, about recovery from attack and attack prevention, I must appologise for being too lazy to have done it before, but I find myself answering the same questions every day.

Good luck

Geniusmaxx10100

January 19th, 2004, 03:46 PM

There is a difference between spam and spyware spam is freedom of speech becuase whoever sent it is trying to sell you something or promote something to you. but spyware is not freedom of speech you cant just go around spying, and then sendin them things, on ppl wether your on the computer or not.

Hope that helps.

nihil

January 19th, 2004, 04:33 PM

Geniusmaxx10100

Just have a thought about this:

1. If I do not ask for something, why should I get it?
2. If I am not eligible, why should I get it?
3. If it is illegal in my country, why should I get it?
4. If it is sent by means of stealing other's resources (SMTP relay), why should I get it?
5. If it is offensive, why should I get it?
6. If it is irrelevant, why should I get it?
7. If it costs me ($$$), why should I get it?

Geniusmaxx10100

I have some 1Mb 30 pin RAM strips...........would you like me to insert some into you? they might help you think more clearly?

I think you need to run your name through a spell check?

Geniusmaxx10100 = "GUINNESS......MAXED OUT ON"

Good luck, and get a life :)

Noia

January 19th, 2004, 04:39 PM

there is a right of free speech, they have the right to make spam, how ever....we have the right to not listen to it and not have it forced upon us. they can make spam all they want, just don't force me to look at it or have to go out of my way to avoid it etc :D
my 2 euro cents

groovicus

January 19th, 2004, 05:32 PM

Geniusmaxx10100 , given the scope of free speech in my post above, how does spam qualify for that protection?

You have the faintest glimmer of a valid argument... :)

aeallison

January 19th, 2004, 07:12 PM

Below are a couple of excerpts of the General Use Policy of the ISP I manage...

Subscribers may not mount deliberate attacks against our systems or use our systems in a deliberate attack on any other systems. This includes, but is not limited to:

Mail bombing (sending three or more unsolicited pieces of e-mail or files exceeding 60K)

"Cracking" or attempting to gain root access

Ping flooding

Tsunami or flood bots

Annoyance utilities like "nuke" or "flash"

SPAMMING - (Unsolicited e-mail or News Postings) Excessive "spamming" in newsgroups or mass email that result in numerous complaints is strictly prohibited. There is no flexibility on this issue. If you are found to be in violation of this policy through 3 or more complaints, your account will be canceled and you may be subject to any applicable local, state or federal violation charges.

This might help to clear things up a bit concerning a small, independent ISP's views on e-mail and our responsibilities. Dishnet has some pretty vague policies, and some very restricting ones too, we allow up to 15Mb attachments, and naturally give 15Mb of storage. We assume that they are using it for lawful use, and it is up to them (the users) to stay within our policies or their account will be terminated. We would rather our customers have a certain freedom of use, and not bog down our system with useless filters. We believe it is up to them to maintain their own filters, AV's, etc. should they so desire. We do scan all incoming and outgoing mail for viri, you all know how effective that can be... MsMittens basically covered all of the bases, we DO strive to maintain a reliable and trouble free connection for our users. I hope this helps.

Richy

January 20th, 2004, 06:53 AM

Thanks everybody.

The bottom line is - Look before you leap ...

I will be writing a couple of tutorials soon, about recovery from attack and attack prevention - Nihil

Waiting ...

steve.milner

January 20th, 2004, 10:26 AM

The problem as I see it is the law.

It doesn't matter if spyware/adware/spam is free speach or not. It doesn't even matter if it has been specifically legislated against.

The spyware/adware/spam will simply move to another country where no such legislation exists and then nothing can be done about them.

There is only one way to stop this. Make it more costly for them to perform these activities than the income they receive.

So for spam if no one ever bought anything contained in spam it would stop - No Income. Reporting spam to appropriate sites can mean moving ISPs - adding to the cost.

So the reall question is how can this methodology be applied to adware/spyware ?

It's not as if someone can legally hack this people and bring them down, because they would then use the laws of the country you are in to prosecute you, even though they have moved away from that country to avoid its laws.

Ever felt you can't win!

MrLinus

January 20th, 2004, 11:13 AM

Reporting spam to appropriate sites can mean moving ISPs - adding to the cost.

Only if open relays were closed. You don't have to be a fancy operation to run a spam house, AFAIK. All you need is an SMTP server with an open relay and your in biz. And there are enough open relays that this continues pretty close to unbated. I mean seriously, how many penial enlargements with beach front condos and low rate mortgages does a chick need?

steve.milner

January 20th, 2004, 01:07 PM

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=253572#post712247) by MsMittens
Only if open relays were closed. You don't have to be a fancy operation to run a spam house, AFAIK. All you need is an SMTP server with an open relay and your in biz. And there are enough open relays that this continues pretty close to unbated. I mean seriously, how many penial enlargements with beach front condos and low rate mortgages does a chick need?

I agree about the need to close open relays, but if you use spamcop, they raise a complaint with the abuse contact of any websites mentioned in the mail, forcing the move of income generating websites.

Steve

iankestor

January 31st, 2004, 02:06 AM

Unlawful entry.
Just because someone tells you up front that looking at their ad gives them the right to install software on your computer. I think my policy now is that anyone who looks at me, talks to me, uses my name, e-mails me, advertises to me or thinks of me is giving me the right to take all their money and do anything to him/her/them/it that I wish. In fact, by simply knowing about me, you voluntarily and without reserve give me permission and authority to complete control of your life, property and anything over which you have control.
Free speech my buss. If I wish to air my opinion, I do not have the right to infringe on the rights of others, including the right to privacy. If Spam (fax/Internet browser/e-mail/cell phone/pager/etc.) is protected as free speech, then I wish to exercise my free speech rights by telling off these so-and-so attholes - in their own bedrooms - at midnight - with a megaphone. HEY! It's my free speech right!

TheTempest

January 31st, 2004, 04:51 AM

just to answer the subject,

NO, SPAM is not free speech, in the same respect that Telemarking it's free speech, they arn't trying to say something, they are trying to sell something. btw, i dont mean say as in literaly, convey a thought, i mean say something imporant...

thadyquill

February 13th, 2004, 12:05 PM

Hi all,

Yeah! I'm an opinionated n00b and this thread is a few weeks old but ...
... it's an important topic and is probably always a live issue for those of us concerned with it security and or personal privacy.

1. Freedom of any kind (speech or otherwise) is always predicated on respect for the rights of others.
2. Spyware/adware/spam/UCE/UBM are internet abuses.
3. They are all consuming my resources (comms, isp, computing) against my wishes and thus abuse my rights commercially.
4. Some or all abuse my right to privacy.
5. Through abusing my rights (and my pocket) the perpetrators forfeit any freedom they might or might not arguably aspire to.

Fundamentally this is the wrong question - apologies to Darkemaster - it shifts the territory onto territory where the perpetrators of these abuses are more comfortable and it is the language of the direct marketing lobby.

The cost - again with apologies to Darkemaster - is more or less always borne by me and my fellow netizens and not by the perpetrators nor indeed by isp's. (ISP's are usually profit making commercial ventures who pass their costs on to me and my likes.)

Last comment until such time as ISP's in large numbers and size join with concerned netizens in lobbying both internet regulatory organisations and legislatures to produce effective and toothed regulations then no matter how many of us small peple lobby our politicos the politicos are always likely to be swayed by the well funded and professional direct marketing lobby.

I'd encourage anybody who is concerned to join lobbying organisations such as www.cauce.org (or regional lobbists like www.euro.cauce.org) which are dedicated to lobbying for regulatory controls against SPAM/UCE/UBM.

Lastly I can live with banner ads and embedded ads when I acess sites whose funding is derived from advertising in the same way as I can live with newspaper advertising or tv advertising but drive-by downloads, trackware and all that other stuff is just too frustrating for most words that I want to use.

Thanks for the airtime.

gpshewan

February 16th, 2004, 07:33 PM

An interesting discussion and one I'm sorry I came a couple of weeks late to.

Spyware and Adware doesn't bother me as I have the filters and checks on (and updated) to ensure I don't see these. Spam is another thing all together. I still have to clear it out of the filters and that annoys me. If I get unsolicited telephone calls trying to sell something, they are told exactly what I think of them and the fact that I am registered to not receive cold calls. If someone comes to my door trying to sell anything - they get told to go away.

What if somebody came to your door everyday of the week to ask if you want viagra, are unhappy with the size of your manhood or wanted to show you dodgy pictures of their college room mates? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that I'd be up on assault charges by Wednesday ;)

I don't think there's going to be a quick solution to spam. I read this article the other day

Spammers, Hackers increasingly feed off each other. (http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20040212S0009)

which makes me think it will only get worse.

All other theories and arguements aside....the only thing that still continues to amaze me, is even though it's incredibly cheap to run as a spammer - there are still enough stupid people out there for them to turn a profit :rolleyes: I mean, how many perverted, penile challenged and impotent people looking for a good deal are out there??!!...or is it just one very rich, bored one? :D

aeallison

February 16th, 2004, 08:21 PM

This world is full of "turnips/lusers"... I manage an ISP, I take all of the customer support calls and I am generally the person who gets blamed for my customers computer problems. I do understand their problems, and I do usually find a cure for their dilemas. I am consantly amazed at the number of people who have used their windows system for years, and have never clicked on the little button in their start menu that is labled "Windows Update"!!! Next down on my list are the people who do not know that they have to update their virus definitions, and/or scan their systems occaisionally. They think that if they install Norton AV, that they bought at Best Buy or somewhere, that they are now "safe".

Now back to the subject of this thread...

I have been suggesting to my customers to download and use Lavasoft's Ad-Aware to remove what it was designed to remove. I chose this product because of its ease of use, now I am getting complaints that I am making it more difficult for them... :confused: I can't seem to win for losing...

gpshewan

February 16th, 2004, 08:27 PM

aeallison

February 16th, 2004, 10:25 PM

Aeallison, I completely sympathise and I'm afraid to say you'll probably never win with users. It's probably been touched on elsewhere in the forum, so I'll only mention it briefly. The mydoom "disaster" as reported by the press. Well I'm sorry but from what I understand you can only get infected from p2p and opening email attachments....it leaves me speechless.

I'd be happy to let users to wallow...but for the fact that their pc's are probably being used as proxies. Talk about lose/lose.

I also publish a monthly newsletter to further try to educate my users. I send it to my users in .pdf format as an attachment in an email, in this newsletter I cover, in detail, tools such as AVG antivirus, Ad-Aware, Mailwasher, etc... All free stuff so they won't complain about hidden costs or whatever they might fabricate in their minds. I provide links to these tools in the articles I write to explain what they are and how to install and use them. On the last page of each issue I provide a list of every tool, along with their links that they can click and visit. I have been under the assumption that this might lower my complaints of slow surfing, unstable connections, etc...

Boy! Was I wrong!!! After sending these out each month now since November 03, I have been asking them, as they come in to pay their bills, or even during casual meetings in the local supermarket, what they think about them and if any of the information I included was of any help. I have been told by most of them that they don't have Acrobat Reader, and that it takes too long to download it, so they have never even seen any of them!!!

What is the old saying? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. This holds true to a very large percentage of our world population. I think the next newsletter will be edited in Outlook so they will have a better chance of actually seeing it. I Go through great pains and a lot of time building the letter in MS Publisher, then then running it through Acrobat Distiller, then editing it again to make the links clickable for their convienence. Has anyone ever done this? It is a real PAIN IN THE A**!! I do this so it will be more appealing to the eye in hopes that they don't get bored by the content too fast. I think most of my customers think reading is work, and education stops when the leave school.

Wow! I just re-read this post and I sound like I am ranting... :rolleyes: ok I'll stop now... </rant>