Scam or legit... what's your opinion.

[HTRegz]

Hey Hey...

I'm looking for info on this... I'm probably going to blow it if it is legit... but that's fine with me.. I've got other interested parties..

A few weeks ago I listed a couple of domains for sale.... For the most part it was a bust... I got a few contacts but nothing really major... Then today, after the sites have been listed for a while, I'm contacted... Here's the email I received.


Return-path: <trevorb@toughguy.net>
Envelope-to: XXXXXXXXXX
Delivery-date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:19:57 -0400
Received: from tzec.mtu.ru ([195.34.34.228])
by XXXXXXXXX with esmtp (Exim 4.44)
id 1DIouK-0006TN-8G
for XXXXXXXXXX; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:19:56 -0400
Received: from firstbroker (ppp135-1.dialup.mtu-net.ru [62.118.135.1])
by smtp.MTU.RU (Postfix) with SMTP id B34525377C4
for <XXXXXXXXXXXXX>; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:18:59 +0400 (MSD)
(envelope-from trevorb@toughguy.net)
From: Chams Consulting <trevorb@toughguy.net>
To: XXXXXXXXXXX
Subject: god-save.us (sent 04/05/05)
X-Mailer: NetMasters SMTP Demo
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-Id: <20050405141859.B34525377C4@tzec.mtu.ru>
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:18:59 +0400 (MSD)

Hi,

I'm writing regarding your domain for sale I saw about two weeks ago. Unfortunately, I was busy and could not contact you at that time.

Is it still available for sale? Have you received any bids from other buyers?

Please email me your asking price.

If I can afford your domain I will contact you. Please keep my email address and our correspondence confidential.

I run a software development company. Selling & buying names is not my main business. Just another way to invest free money and make some income.

Kindest regards,

Trevor Berger

CEO

Chams Consulting

Cost Analysis & Revenue Assurance Software.


My response:


Hello,

The domain is still available and I believe the asking price is around 250.

Tyler



Then I immediately received this:


Return-path: <trevorb@toughguy.net>
Envelope-to: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Delivery-date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:28:07 -0400
Received: from smtp-out.hotpop.com ([38.113.3.71])
by XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX with esmtp (Exim 4.44)
id 1DIp2E-0008N4-Sx
for XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:28:07 -0400
Received: from toughguy.net (kubrick.hotpop.com [38.113.3.103])
by smtp-out.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 30B6B15072B0
for <XXXXXXXXXXXXX>; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:27:56 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from diamondoji4lze (ppp135-1.dialup.mtu-net.ru [62.118.135.1])
by smtp-2.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 529F2101A634
for <XXXXXXXXXXXX>; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:27:54 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <024301c539eb$add6cb00$2c015e55@diamondoji4lze>
From: "Chams Consulting" <trevorb@toughguy.net>
To: XXXXXXXXXXX
References: <20050405142135.4C684298084@mx1.toughguy.net>
Subject: Re: god-save.us (sent 04/05/05)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:28:01 +0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1250"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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250. Ok.

Do you sell a developed site or just domain name? If you don't have a site it's not a problem. I'm mostly interested in domain names without content.


Do you have an appraisal of your domain? I need an appraisal certificate for domain priced in your range. Domain name is an investment for me. I'm going to sell your name later and make a profit. If I overpay I won't be able to make a profit in the future. So I need to know the current market value of your name. I guess your are also interested in getting this figure.

Please note that I don't trust free or cheap appraisals. So we cannot accept appraisal from each and every site.

Earlier I had a bad experience with Afternic.com. I also found the following inform,ation about them.
http://forum.icann.org/nsi2001/3AC75D7900000305.html


To avoid mistakes I asked domain experts about reputable appraisal companies in a forum.
http://domaintalk.ourplace.com/Archive/18876.htm
Juck check this posting.

After I verify an appraisal from you we'll continue our negotiations.

How do you prefer to get paid: www.PayPal.com, www.escrow.com, check or wire?

Looking forward to your reply.



I haven't replied yet, but the links provided look pretty sketchy...

Any opinons?

Peace,

HT

[MrLinus]

I say scam:

http://www.sedo.us/forum/?task=showthread&thread=991&tmp=&language=us

http://justtraffic.blogspot.com/2005_02_06_justtraffic_archive.html

http://www.webmaster-hub.com/lofiversion/index.php/t10738.html (while in French, I get the impression that it's the same thing through a brief search -- and your guy is there)

[edit]

Interesting to see that he comes from Russia (if I'm seeing correctly in the headers)

[ZT3000]

Scam-O-Rama!

Why can't people just make money off working. Scamming takes too much effort!

[Soda_Popinsky]

Hi HT

I wouldn't be suprised if the forum is a setup to convince you to use one of the domain appraisal services they link. Here's the post:
I may recommend you http://appraisal.Assets.com/ They provide very fast support and good service. Their appraisals are resonable and are based on quality of your name and current market prices. http://www.GreatDomains.com/ was one of the best appraisers in the world. Earlier I used them but they don't offer appraisals anymore I also tried http://www.Afternic.com/ but it looks like they use scripts to generate appraisals. Manual service is always better. I also don't like to wait for several days so I usually use http://appraisal.Assets.com/. I sent you several of my names Have you received them?
The two domains praised in the thread are FASTDOMAINSALES.COM and ALLFORDOMAINS.COM, both of which are owned by these guys but are treated as separate entities in the thread:
Forces, Soft
SForces
3041 S. 6th Street
Kalamazoo, MI 49009
US

They try to discourage afternic as much as possible and lead you towards the other domains with those posts. Just look at the thread... it's so hokey. Who makes transactions in public threads? And what's with the post by Platzer?!


This will also confirm it hopefully... The threads are constructed:
http://domaintalk.ourplace.com/Archive/18876.htm
http://domaintalk.ourplace.com/Archive/18875.htm

Why would there be 2 extremely similar threads with slight changes? hmmm ;) Perhaps the last phish page wasn't working out, with people using afternic and all. the second page looks like it was recreated to discredit afternic.

google this: site:domaintalk.ourplace.com
Doesn't seem like a very popular forum :)

If I were you, I would DEMAND to use afternic and see how he reacts. He may not make any money off of the appraisal if you use afternic, and I think he's trying to make money off of you using his appraisal service and then running. I'm leaning towards scam as well, however I gotta see more conversation.

[halv]

If the appraisal process costs money, then I would ask him to pay the fee up front. I would also offer (since you want to give him/her a way to save face if it is legit) to take the price that they pay out of the asking price of the domain.

since they see the domain as an investment, they should be used to putting $ up front.

Edit -- I checked out the afternic site and they charge about $20 for a single appraisal. The .allfordomains.com site charges $59 .. and they have this listed on their page

Low prices. Other companies usually charge $75 per professional appraisal certificate. Our prices are much lower. We have serious discounts on bulk appraisals.

good luck
~Halv

[spheraice]

Scam.......total scam in every sense

[HTRegz]

Hey Hey,

Here's the latest comminque...

Me:

Hey,

I have had an appraisal done by C.B. Appraisals... it was appraised at $1000.00CDN.

I looked into those sites that you provided, however the links they point to are currently down.

Tyler


Response:

Never heard about such company.

I will only accept appraisals from independent companies I know and trust.



Based on what was said here I have now sent this out:


Hey Hey,

I can understand that.. I'll be more than happy to deal with internic... I've heard good things. I'd suggest that you pay for the appraisal and I will then deduct that price from the selling price.. If the appraisal comes back at less than $1000CDN... I will lower the price of my site by 50%.

Thank you,
Tyler


Thanks,
HT

[Soda_Popinsky]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Please+keep+my+email+address+and+our+correspondence+confidential%22&btnG=Google+Search

[HTRegz]

Hey Hey,

Just a quick update.
This was him, then me, then him..


My appraisers? Thank you. Now I'm very rich man who owns many companies in the world.

I misunderstood you regrading Internic. I thought you tried to represent C.
B. appraisals as Internic's service.

Of course, Internic is ok with me.

----- Original Message -----
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
To: "'Chams Consulting'" <trevorb@toughguy.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:22 AM
Subject: RE: god-save.us (sent 04/05/05)


> Hello,
>
> I'm saying I'd be more than happy to have internic used as the
> appraiser
if
> you wont' accept C.B. Appraisals... Only appraisals from companies
> recommended to you by domain experts??? What do you consider to be a
domain
> expert... and what's wrong with my appraisers??? This is starting to
> sound
a
> little fishy. How are they independent if they're your appraisers..
>
> Tyler
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chams Consulting [mailto:trevorb@toughguy.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 1:14 AM
> To: XXXXXXXXXXXXX
> Subject: Re: god-save.us (sent 04/05/05)
>
> I never heard about C.B. Appraisals. What is this? Why do you call
> them Internic appraisals?
>
> I don't want to risk and will only accept apptraisals from companies
> that were recommended to me by domain experts.
>
> I understand you, but usually sellers provide buyers with appraisals.
> It's
a
> common practice. Independent appraisers are involved in any serious
> purchase.
>
>



Peace,
HT

[HTRegz]

Hey Hey

Just another update


Go get appraisal at Internic.

----- Original Message -----
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
To: "'Chams Consulting'" <trevorb@toughguy.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: god-save.us (sent 04/05/05)


> Alrighty... so where do we stand?
>
> Lay it out for me.
>
> Tyler


Him and Me again..

Any ideas how to forge an internic appraisel?? it'd be nice to scam the scammer in some way.

Peace,
HT

[MrLinus]

http://www.echoarts.com/pll/urlbuyers/appraisalresults-URLBUYERS-SAMPLE.htm <--- domain name sample

http://www.internic.net/index.html <-- internic logos

http://internic.ca/ <--- internic.ca logos

:D

[Tiger Shark]

I dunno... What _exactly_ are we "appraising".... It ain't a house where the value needs to be ascertained with regard to location, condition etc.

You own a domain name.... he wants it.... He can go and see who the domain registrar is at the appropriate place. If you own it and want to sell it then he can buy it. The only _real_ question is "how much does he want to pay for it?". What's to appraise?

Tell him to make an offer or go away....

[MrLinus]

Well, I think the "appraisal" is the believed value of it on the market. As in, what are others willing to pay? (sorta like a house or when companies go after employees). Given what the domain in question is -- god-save.us -- the potential for it's use in the US is huge, IMO. I could see a few Christian organizations be interested in that as well as a few Doomsday organizations. :)

[Tiger Shark]

Ms. M: Yes, I can see that too.... But it's a name... Nothing more.... What does the buyer think it's worth to him? If he offers that and the seller accepts then the "game is on"... Can he sell it for more than he bought it for?...

This appraisal stuff is rubbish and I have a horrible feeling that the "buyer" owns or has influence over the "appraisal" services so that he can buy them on the cheap.

HT: pick a nice fat price for the domain... stick to it... tell him to take his appraisals and place them where the sun doesn't shine and see what he says. He'll bitch, whine moan and complain... and every time he does tell him that the price isn't changing... period!

The scam is the appraisal.... You can't appraise something that is so subjective... It only has value to the buyer..

Send him through the "hoops" and take him for every penny he'll pay.... If you think you can still get more... which I think you will be able to.... leave him hanging..... :D

[zencoder]

Yup. Tell him to pay for the appraisal himself; hell, offer him a contract or agreement that you will subtract the cost of the appraisal from the sale price etc. as you mentioned. Stick to your guns that if he wants an appraisal, he pay for it. And definitely get his take on 'domain experts'. This guy is full of shit. You can do all this, or you can tell him to **** off and take his bullshit sites with him. ;)

[mohaughn]

.cc, .us, .tv, etc.. have all been extremely poor performing domain names. They just don't do that well. People don't remember the extension or they think the domain name itself doesn't look professional.

People are so use to seeing .com or .net that they are turned off by other domain names.. Clear Channels communication tried to make a big deal out of .cc when it first came out and it just about flopped. A specialty site such as those mentioned by MsM is the only people who would probably be interested in this site and their usage would be so low that they would not be looking to spend hundreds of dollars on a domain name. 250$ is probably a fair price if they really want the name.

As for the scam. The scam is the appraisal. You pay 65$ and get a worthless piece of paper. They won't buy the site from you at all once you have them appraise it.

[HTRegz]

Hey Hey,

It all makes sense,

I'm hoping to send him the faked appraisal this weekend, the only thing I don't get is if the scam is the appraisal... why'd he say it was ok to go ahead and use internic?

Peace,
HT

[Soda_Popinsky]

internic.com doesn't do appraisals... He knows you're going to go there and hit a dead end.
The place he was trying to get you to avoid was afternic.com, which is the one you should have demanded to use. So I think you slipped :p
Sample appraisal
http://www.afternic.com/rsample.html

[halv]

If you do use another appraiser, then I am sure that he will make up another fake site that can discredit that apprasial process. Since he things you will want to sell he will suggest (or insist) that you use the site that he gets a kickback from. After that is done, he will not want to buy your site since he just made some $$.

He is hoping that if you get an outside appraisal that give your site more worth, that you will pay again to have another appraisal done.

Good luck and keep us posted.

~Halv

[HTRegz]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=267403#post833844) by Soda_Popinsky
internic.com doesn't do appraisals... He knows you're going to go there and hit a dead end.
The place he was trying to get you to avoid was afternic.com, which is the one you should have demanded to use. So I think you slipped :p
Sample appraisal
http://www.afternic.com/rsample.html

Looks like a big goof on my part... I'll have to make up for it :)

Thanks for pointing tha tout.. Tonight while I'm at work i'll try and do up a nice appraisal slip for him from afternic and just send him that.


Peace,
HT

[halv]

Also, to help things on your end, I would try to contact someone who has used their service (Afternic.com) and see if you can get a copy of their appraisal. I would email that person and ask them how they would rate Afternic.com and ask to see the appraisal.

~Halv

[Egaladeist]

It wouldn't hurt as well if you told him that you have had unsolicited offers in the past before you decided to sell...and refused them at that time...and mention how much those offers were for.

[Tiger Shark]

HT:

Since everyone can't seem to let this go I present for you my own little piece of "investigation"... I call it a Google Search..... ;)

Chams Consulting (http://www.dnforum.com/showthread.php?p=543992#post543992&conly=)

From: AirNike764@aol.com
To: trevorb@toughguy.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: Bid on goldencrown.com


Nice scam. You almost seemed like a legitimate buyer. Thanks anyways and good luck ripping someone else off.

In a message dated 4/5/2005 3:37:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, trevorb@toughguy.net writes:

Do you sell a developed site or just domain name? If you don't have a site it's not a problem. I'm mostly interested in domain names without content.


Do you have an appraisal of your domain? I need an appraisal certificate before making an offer. Domain name is an investment for me. I'm going to sell your name later and make a profit. If I overpay I won't be able to make a profit in the future. So I need to know the current market value of your name. I guess your are also interested in getting this figure.

Please note that I don't trust free or cheap appraisals. So we cannot accept appraisal from each and every site.

Earlier I had a bad experience with Afternic.com. I also found the following information about them.
http://forum.icann.org/nsi2001/3AC75D7900000305.html

To avoid mistakes I asked domain experts about reputable appraisal companies in a forum.
http://domaintalk.ourplace.com/Archive/11076.htm
Juck check this posting.

After I verify an appraisal from you we'll continue our negotiations.

How do you prefer to get paid: www.PayPal.com, www.escrow.com, check or wire?

Looking forward to your reply.


Recognize the email? ;)

[Soda_Popinsky]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but did anyone ever get the specific name of this type of scam? It's pretty unique and doesn't fall into the typical category...

Thanks

[MrLinus]

I believe it'll be classified as a Domain Name Appraisal Scam. There seems to be a variety of Domain Name Scams:

Domain Name Registration (aka Registration poaching)
Domain Name Selling
Domain Name Buying (might be combined with Imaginary competitors who are "identified" as having your trademarked product as a FQDN)