Hackers are all B@#t@rds

[Egaladeist]

Nowhere is this more evident than in the rapidly growing trend where hackers attack, compromise and steal money (and identities) from individuals. Whether it's the little old lady who lost $50,000 of her life's savings, or the Trojan that finds every parent's online banking account, what's the difference to a hacker?

Sitting behind a computer, any shy or docile human being can become the world's nastiest bastard of a hacker without even the slightest tinge of regret.

Attack, compromise, transfer funds, and then walk away. You might have just stolen the life savings of someone you don't know (and will never meet), so who cares? Or you've stolen the identity of someone who will feel the effects almost daily and for at least ten years down the road. But how does that affect you?

Hackers couldn't be any further detached from the damage, devastation and emotional destruction they cause. Just close the lid to your laptop computer, and move on.
Petty thieves or 2-bit thugs?

There are no morals among hackers anymore, no sense of right-or-wrong, and no appreciation of a greater good. Take the devastation caused by the tsunami last year and the destruction the Americans have faced with Katrina: dozens of phishing sites, phony donation efforts, fraud and rampant online identity theft, millions of pieces of spam and custom viruses purporting to be trojan relief efforts that were all trying to exploit the very individuals who, ironically, were offering up their funds in an effort to do some good. This is the community we work in.There are probably a dozen people trying to hack the Red Cross right now.

Would these same people break into their neighbor's home and rob an old lady at gunpoint? Or smash her head in with a sledgehammer? I'm guessing, probably not. Why? Because there's a clearer link between the crime and the consequences when you're not hiding behind your computer. The meek-human-but-vicious-hacker closes the lid of his laptop again, leaves the anonymous WiFi connection he was borrowing, and he's done.

This disturbing trend to attack individuals (and often for relatively petty amounts, at that), or emergency relief agencies, or even just the lowest hanging fruit around, is nothing short of evil and it must be stopped, exposed or redirected if it's ever going to come to an end.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/16/hacker_morality/
Hackers are all B'stards now | The Register

[gauravjulka]

Well..

I opened this thread for the same purpose

http://www.antionline.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=270581

May be there needs to be some clear and uniform civil laws across the world to curb this menace.... The field is newer yet so legislations across the world will need some time to get hold of these probs..

You dont know a hacker or phisher sitting in an oblivious place in Africa or subterranian desert trying to steal money from your local bank account... WHat your local laws will do when the culprit is operating from the darkest corner of the planet..

[Kite]

subterranian desert. an underground desert?

anyway, untill something major happens, like a computer disaster of some kind, we are not going to see much proactive legislation. when it comes to computers legislation is mostly reactionary.

[beee]

There are probably a dozen people trying to hack the Red Cross right now.

do u really think that is happening right now:P
umm.. let us volunteer and help protecting the red cross loool
instead of nagging and swearing
it will take a "saturday" afternoon lloooooll

I don't think those classify as hackers
once again, i don't wanna explain what a hacker is
but i think the word is somehow over used everywhere in wrong, sometimes good meaning

so we need now to make some new words
like computer criminals and such stuff

but sadly,in the end, there are ppl like that no matter what u call them, I know ppl like that
but in the end,they will get busted,i know it or u have to convince them to get them to the right side,more education needs to be done
and serious steps need to be taken from the software and hardware makers in order to ensure a good service
they are bastards too as they make lot of money from low quality poor products
that is stealing in another meaning too

[unvi$ible]

hi there,
i agree with you totally.
they are doing crime but because they are too far from crime scene or imidiate consencvences it doesnt seems to them as any wrong doing.
I think is same feeling like bying everything on visa card.it doesnt look like money and is easy to spend fortune on it even you cant afford it.Its only plastic.
as we are all aware its more and more evil in the world every day around us.
Developing big cities pple got alienated and Pc is best think which happen to this breed.
Alienated and alone you have the world on your fingertips.You can be whatever and whoever.
Our society had gone terible wrong as you worte it million pple who wants to help and then they get outnumbered by pple who exploit their generosity.
Noydays you will not stop on the street to help somone because its not your bussiness. IF you do and give them for instance first aid they come after you and sue you so better stay away.

Since i was small boy and started wotching tv and reading papers afrikca was more then in bad shape.
after 40 years and billions and billions dollars what has changed?
it even worse now with aids and more poverty until we in developing nationtrow and buy stuff we will never use.
Unfortunatelly a lot organisations (very well names in aid( misused genereous funds so pple get even more disolusion to help).
unfortunatelly i will not see in my life time that things in africa will improve, and poverty will go away.
with more and more divorces every day our kids became materialisticly maybe well off compare to undeveloped countries but emotionally they are same like them- poor in every sence.
watching city of new orleans and devastated area its braught to all of us that life is nothing.everything can be taken in seconds by mother nature and we can just watch helpleslly.
To see that superpower was badly prapered or underestimated damage gets to me how on earth you excpect tsunami most poor countries to respond to that type of devastetion.
they have no chance.
back to computers.
I am not sure statisticly but i believe only 2 % of world population have one.
here you go
god help us

[pakbehl]

This sounds like an article written by some angry journalist who got a huge credit card bill because he gave it to the wrong unsecured porno site. I can certainly understand somebody's anger at being devastated and emotionally destructed, I've had my things stolen, I've had to deal with virii, but do I write an article that generalizes every single person who ever wrote a virus, sent spam, ran a scam, ripped off the life savings of little old ladies, and found every "parent's" online bank account and called them all "hackers". I will most certainly agree whole heartedly that anyone who would do these terrible things are incredible jerks and should be made to feel what they inflict on others, but I've said 19million times before and I'll say it again these people are not hackers, they are cyber criminals, or whatever kind of criminal you want to call them. I am so sick of constantly arguing with people over the definition of 'hacker'. There are massive groups of law-abiding, tax-paying, PTA attending, hard working, proffesional people in the world that consider themselves hackers and make it known to others that this does not imply that they do anything illegal whatsoever. Yet over and over the media blatantly and rudely demonizes "hackers" and attaches that word to the worst kind of cyber*****s there are.
He speaks up for people who feel the effects of identity theft and the like ever day
Well I and millions of others like me are standing up for peaceful hackers who have to deal with the outrageous terroristic connotations that *random explitive* journalists like him perpetuate without a second thought.

Just thought I'd complain...

[NIKLAS?]

good lecture invisible.
yes,the world does seems to fall apart, i wonder how many wars will the u.s and its allies fought against poor countries?...can u guess?..

[The Duck]

Do not bring up political discussions in the security forums NIKLAS, that belongs in cosmos... Your just going to get HTRegz in here to complain about the US :p...

[My SuperMan Ego]

I don't think those classify as hackers once againNo wait... your actually referring to kids who've got nothing better to do other than laying on their ass for hours while doing some very redundant and mundane computer related tasks in the hopes that this will somehow make them appear smart or cool? When they find out that making hello world appear on screen is neither very smart or even entertaining for that matter.... hey, just inform the person next to you that playing with a computer really makes you into something, yeah like a "hacker". Maybe this sexy word will make you appear hip and edgy or make the act of laying back and typeing alot into a cultural phenomena.

i don't wanna explain what a hacker isAnd im just rambling on at the moment but if you didn't want to explain your view of things then why did you even bother posting that? Oh its because people who toss the H-word have an image to uphold, right?

There are probably a dozen people trying to hack the Red Cross right now.Please... thats pretty dumb all around. And not only that but you also need to remember that the Red-Cross, on average, will only give 6% or so of their profits to charities. Anyone who goes about their day to day in a house made of mud or burns flags in their spare time yet can't seem to find a job will get a slice of that money before anyone else.

[Egaladeist]

And I've Said it before and I'll say it again...

Whether or not you have good intentions or malicious ones...if you gain Unauthorized access to any computer you are commiting an unethical act!

You do NOT have the right to ' HACK ' unless YOU SPECIFICALLY have received PERMISSION to do so.

In which case you are not a HACKER...you are a security professional....the very term HACKER came from having unauthorized access.

The official definition is:
Quick definitions (Hacker)

# noun: a programmer for whom computing is its own reward; may enjoy the challenge of breaking into other computers but does no harm (Example: "True hackers subscribe to a code of ethics and look down upon crackers")
# noun: someone who plays golf poorly
# noun: a programmer who breaks into computer systems in order to steal or change or destroy information as a form of cyber-terrorism
# noun: one who works hard at boring tasks

The definition does NOT include having AUTHORIZATION so the term HACKER is a term for criminals...
if you break into my home to fix my VCR...you still gained UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS to my home...you committed a B & E ! You are therefore a criminal!

You are not a criminal ONLY if you have the person's PERMISSION!

If you think it's OK to enter another's person's property ( home or computer ) without their EXPRESSED PERMISSION then please forward your address to me in a PM and I'll be happy to enter your property if I'm ever down your way.

It is SOMEONE ELSE"S PROPERTY...I don't know why that is so difficult for HACKERS to understand...perhaps their mentality doesn't include ETHICS !

Their brain is obviously missing a vital piece of code!

Eg ;)

[rubytuesday]

[i]

I don't think those classify as hackers
once again, i don't wanna explain what a hacker is
but i think the word is somehow over used everywhere in wrong, sometimes good meaning

so we need now to make some new words
like computer criminals and such stuff [/B]

Somebody beat you to it a long time ago their called 'crackers' and they wear a black hat, real 'hackers' don't break into systems or engage in malicious activities he/she earns respect not only for technical and coding skills but for being unselfish like sharing his/her knowledge with others, volunteering to help out by administering mailing lists moderating message forums keeping the peace between members doing the ugly work like kicking out the flamers,tards, trolls, helping to debug open source software like Linux or Freebsd, publishing very useful information and doing other things that are really mundane.

Attitude and ones actions are always silently noted by the community you earn points for keeping your ego in in check, not going on power trips to be top dog, not feeding trolls who look for trouble on message boards, being self reliant at solving problems on your own without always bugging others to spoon feed you the solution of what to do lazy and carelessness loses big points and respect.

[Egaladeist]

Hi rubytuesday,

That's all well and good...unfortunately I never heard you mention PERMISSION...and that seems to be the problem.

I've heard how people throw the term around and the term HACKER does not seem to have a CLEAR and UNIFIED MEANING to everyone.

If you say that a HACKER is someone who gains access ONLY with the PERMISSION of the target...then...that would define a HACKER as someone with ETHICS...

however, if you say a HACKER can access property WITHOUT the OWNER"S PERMISSION then he's a criminal...period!

Just as if he/she was to break into another person's home WITHOUT their PERMISSION!

It amazes me how people justify BREAKING IN to someone else's property....and then have the audacity to claim they have ETHICS!

Eg ;)

[rubytuesday]

[i]

If you say that a HACKER is someone who gains access ONLY with the PERMISSION of the target...then...that would define a HACKER as someone with ETHICS...

however, if you say a HACKER can access property WITHOUT the OWNER"S PERMISSION then he's a criminal...period!

Just as if he/she was to break into another person's home WITHOUT their PERMISSION!

It amazes me how people justify BREAKING IN to someone else's property....and then have the audacity to claim they have ETHICS!

Eg ;) [/B]

Hi,

I agree any time somebody opens a window and goes in someones house without the knowledge of the owner they are breaking the law they use to say whenever people went into other systems without consent if you didn't touch anything it 'was exploring' then you crawled out the guys system and left without leaving a trace but that's alot of bull hockey it's trespassing. It's the same when somebody comes across a crackers mess do you enter the system or stay out? use common sense and don't go in there and for heavens sakes don't touch the admins files he won't be happy even if you leave him a note on his terminal.

It's the younger people doing all the evil out there they meet their friends on IRC and chat who tell them how to be a script kiddie then they download tools and attack systems for kicks their Parents set no limits on these tards and everyone suffers under their worm and ddos assaults. Jail isn't the answer they have to be reached early and steered away from the darkside (just my opinion).

[Juridian]

Never mind the goverment or crime sponsored groups.

[Egaladeist]

hi Juridian,

Government and crime sponsored groups...well...we don't have to ask if they have ethics do we :D

hi rubytuesday,

Absolutely!

I'm old-school...if you want something you ask for it...the worst that can happen is they'll say ' no '...and no harm no foul!

Why do these ' HACKERS/CRACKERS NOT ASK?...because they know that if they ask for PERMISSION most of the time they're going to be shot down...so they circumvent the person's authority and go in WITHOUT PERMISSION.

That's a criminal act!

If they had ETHICS they would ask and then respect the wishes of the OWNER of the PROPERTY.

There is no justification in circumventing another person's RIGHTS!

Eg

[My SuperMan Ego]

real 'hackers' don't break into systems or engage in malicious activities he/she earns respect not only for technical and coding skills but for being unselfish like sharing his/her knowledge with other

No. "unselfish?" How about this... a person who has grown up and no longer feels the need to dub themselves crap like "l337 h4x0r", doesn't feel the need to mentor a bunch of children in exchange for some type of momentary gain... these various forms of honor or pristiege that just does not truely exist. Not as long as there are people around willing to listen and take what you know and once agian... to share it for the same reasons, to look smart &/or cool infront of others.

If they had ETHICS they would ask and then respect the wishes of the OWNER of the PROPERTY.You can't point at a few changed bytes in-memory, on disk, or a loss in bandwidth and tell me something along the lines of whats right and wrong. It is however usually considered by many to be "common sense" to form your own sense of that.

[Egaladeist]

hi My Superman Ego,

You can't point at a few changed bytes in-memory, on disk, or a loss in bandwidth and tell me something along the lines are right and wrong. It is however usually considered "common sense" to be law abiding or what-not... or atleast to some degree.
Yes...yes I can...you seem to have missed the same point as these HACKERS/CRACKERS...it's the fact you are THERE...you have BROKEN INTO someone else's property...you have VIOLATED THEIR RIGHTS...it's not about whether you changed anything or not...

If you see someone coming through your window are you going to think that's acceptable behaviour...even if all they want is a glass of water?

If you're thirsty you knock on the door and ask for a glass of water...you come through the window you better hope the person inside doesn't have a lighter, or he may set your head on fire.

Your attitude that it's OK to BREAK-IN to someone else's property WITHOUT their PERMISSION as long as you aren't going to do any real harm is EXACTLY the problem ...this is EXACTLY what these HACKERS think is OK and it's how they justify doing it...

but you CAN"T JUSTIFY IT THAT WAY...

Eg ;)

Trying to explain to a HACKER why it's wrong to break into another person's property WITHOUT their expressed PERMISSION...is like trying to tell a theif why it's wrong to steal...it's a waste of breath because they are incapable of grasping the concept of right and wrong.
One of my friends growing up was this guy who would constantly steal things...nothing big ( a watch, a camera, something he could fit into his pocket, or hide comfortably inside a jacket )...and he never thought it was wrong either...he always had the excuses lined up..." stores can afford the loss " " they'll write it off on their taxes " " I'm sure they're insured " etc...
that is until he had something stolen...then it was the biggest crime he had ever seen...he was outraged that anyone would be so rotten as to steal from him...how could anybody do this to HIM...
funny isn't it how ETHICS only matters to these people when they become the VICTIMS!

[shals]

egala

you are being too harsh on the hackers,man you should look at the contribution they are giving to the security department of various countries.with the help of them only many big theft are being prevented.HACKERS only prevent ous frfom the CRACKERS.understand the thin line between hackers & crackers.

[Egaladeist]

Hi shals,

I'm not being harsh...and I'll tell you why...

even if no one would give a HACKER permission what's to stop the HACKER/CRACKER community from setting up their OWN boxes with all the fixes and exploit them for weaknesses, etc...the simple fact is there is NO excuse for it...if their true aim was to help by exposing weaknesses, etc...then

they could set up their OWN network and try to HACK/CRACK each other's machines and then report their findings.

There is NO excuse to compromise a system or network WITHOUT PERMISSION.

Eg ;)

[hackerjacker]

Hackers are not b@#t@rds! I understand that maybe some hackers use their skills to wreak havoc, but I use my skills to get my passwords back, and test the security of my network etc.

[Black Cluster]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post861549) by hackerjacker
Hackers are not b@#t@rds! I understand that maybe some hackers use their skills to wreak havoc, but I use my skills to get my passwords back, and test the security of my network etc.

Oh! my god! are you a HACKER .... :confused:

[Egaladeist]

hackerjacker,

You obviously didn't read the posts...or you just ' skimmed ' over them...

I never said that HACKERS are Ba@#tards...unless you're refering to the article that does...

And many people here have repeatedly tried to DEFINE the difference between a HACKER and a CRACKER/SCRIPTKIDDIE...

unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a UNIVERSAL and ACCEPTED DEFINITION of the term HACKER...

the point that I've made here is that IF you define, as some do, a HACKER as someone who does good and yet STILL gains access to another person's property WITHOUT their EXPRESSED PERMISSION then...he is committing an UNETHICAL ACT...and a very UNNECCESSARY ACT to achieve a positive goal...therefore he/she is WRONG!

Ontheotherhand IF you define a HACKER as someone who DOES NOT compromise or enter another person's property WITHOUT their EXPRESSED PERMISSION then...you have an ETHICAL DEFINITION of a HACKER.

The problem rests in that not everyone defines what a HACKER is and is allowed to do in the same way...there are no set rules.

And this creates a problem...we live by proper definitions...we understand what a doctor is ( even further defined by his/her area of specialty )...we understand what a janitor is...we understand what a pilot is...because they have ACCEPTED DEFINITIONS...a HACKER does not have that accepted definition and can dramatically change from one person to the next.

So..barring an affirmed definition...the only way we can characterize what a HACKER is...is by applying a code of ETHICS.

Eg ;)

This started out as a security news story about hackers...but has since turned into a cosmos discussion...maybe it should be moved?

[My SuperMan Ego]

you are being too harsh on the hackers,man you should look at the contribution they are giving to the security department of various countries.with the help of them only many big theft are being prevented.HACKERS only prevent ous frfom the CRACKERS.understand the thin line between hackers & crackers.People who dub themselves or others around them the H-word... at what moment have you seen anyone like that do anything smart or even entertaining with a computer?

Criminal actions or not... there is a big difference between someone who actually takes up a real interest in computers as opposed to those who toss the H-word around.

[©opy®ight]

*Yawn*

Discussions about Ethics can go on forever since everybody feels different or they have their own ethics.

[Aven]

Black Cluster: this is a computer-related site... I'm sure there's tons of hackers...

Anyway, I know lots of people that have gotten their paypal account hacked. It's just sad and the hacker him/herself should feel bad about it, I know I definitly would. If only the internet was a safer place...

[Egaladeist]

Hi CopyRight,

True...everyone can decide what is right and what is wrong in their opinion...fortunately it's not up to their opinion.

Eg ;)

[My SuperMan Ego]

True...everyone can decide what is right and what is wrong in their opinion...fortunately it's not up to their opinion.Only if your religious... if not then you'll know people have created that. I find your last post rather ironic after reading about two pages of your analogies and everyone's defense of some word.

Computers for them are only the tool of choice when it comes to keeping an image. They are also under the impression that they are beyond just any other user out there... this is often proven to be untrue.

So what we have here are egotists with an inferiority complex.

I mean... god forbid if your just an average guy who likes computers and just leave it at that as opposed to thumping your chest and tossing the H word around.

[Aspman]

the hacker him/herself should feel bad about it

Why? If he/she has just emptied your bank account I'd expect that they would be frickin delighted.
Same as the junky that rips out your nice car stereo and sells it for their next fix. They'll be happy people that their next dose is paid for.

The crime is theft. Doesn't matter if it's done by breaking into your car or breaking into your PC, it's still theft. The H word just puts a more interesting media spin on an old crime.

Hacker as a word is lost to the 'dark side'. If you call youself a hacker to other people (non-technical expecially) you either look like a criminal or a *****.

[Egaladeist]

My SuperMan Ego,

Again...you seem to miss the point...as CopyRight did...this is not about religious ethics...it's about PROPERTY RIGHTS...and an Ethical VIOLATION of those Rights.
Unless you OWN the computer or information ... you do NOT have a right to it.

What does that have to do with OPINION or RELIGION????

Absolutely nothing.

Eg ;)

[therenegade]

Hmm...I dont understand why we keep having a go at this hacker/cracker nonsense...they mean the same to the general public,period.Why try to justify it?You scream the difference aloud and they'll still think you're a criminal lol..Eg's repeatedly made the point VERY clear...it doesnt matter if you're Bill Gates..if you're im my computer illegally,you're a criminal.(please,no MS jokes please;) ).
The article's been written by an ass who probably sent all his money to a 'dying uncle in Kenya' and is now furious he isnt getting 70% of the billion dollar deal.

Cheers

[Egaladeist]

Hi the renegade,

Exactly!

And I agree...the guy's obviously been burned and has an itch he's trying to scratch.

Eg ;)

[metguru]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post861631) by Aspman
Hacker as a word is lost to the 'dark side'. If you call youself a hacker to other people (non-technical expecially) you either look like a criminal or a *****.

I totaly agree with you. Its too late to try to explain to people that the origonal definition of a hacker had a possitive connotation, bacause of all the kids that use the kiddyscripts and what not that call themselves hackers, so I consider it useless to make a big deal about what is a hacker and cracker and what isn't. This doesn't mean I don't think that going into someones computer without permission is wrong, its just the labels that they are given are usually incorrect, and i don't think that will ever change.

[My SuperMan Ego]

Look at anyone who just enjoys computers and leaves it at that... this as opposed to anyone who uses the H-word either in the so called "ethical" sense or not you'll notice the difference between the two right way. A "hacker" is someone who has...

A: Turned on their computer in the hopes and dreams of "being something" and/or "being known for something".

B: Set themselves apart from any random Joe on the internet by appointing themselves and people around them "hackers" and maybe even other various words of self importance despite how limited they actually are as far as computers go.

Oh and my favorite at the moment C: Gets defensive and angry when you sum it up in a way they feel some how hurts their image.

[Agent_Steal]

Hi the renegade,
Exactly!
And I agree...the guy's obviously been burned and has an itch he's trying to scratch.
Eg


I believe that he is trying to address three issues [ Feel free to correct me if I am wrong :

[1] Unlike the real world things such as ethics and morals dont exist on the Internet. Therefor there it is much easier for someone to commit a crime.

Hackers couldn't be any further detached from the damage, devastation and emotional destruction they cause. Just close the lid to your laptop computer, and move on.


Why care ??

[2]
You have people who are overworked, underpaid, understaffed and well they basically lack the resources to do their job properly. So why would some guy who's breaking in really care ?? Heck why would the guy/girl who's getting worked like a dog even care at all ??

[3] The culture of the Internet is different today then what it was back then. Like the authors mentions : "everyone was more interested in making it all work and in building new and amazing things." Now it seems people are more interested in taking it apart ??
Or making a quick buck ???

I may be wrong but interesting read though .... " Crime ? What crime ? "

[spheraice]

its takes one to know one

[Egaladeist]

Hi AS,

That was my point...or at least one of them...

1. there seems to be no CLEAR recognized and accepted definition of a hacker

2. in regards to property rights it is unethical, and in some cases, if not all, illegal to gain UNAUTHORIZED access

3. trying to explain to these people why it is WRONG to enter someone else's property WITHOUT their permission is like trying to explain to a thief why it's wrong to steal...they do not see or understand the consequences of their actions so...they don't see it as being wrong...until it happens to them.

I noticed and read what was said...did you actually read what I said...or just gloss over it?

Eg ;)

[Agent_Steal]

Hi AS,

That was my point...or at least one of them...

1. there seems to be no CLEAR recognized and accepted definition of a hacker

2. in regards to property rights it is unethical, and in some cases, if not all, illegal to gain UNAUTHORIZED access

3. trying to explain to these people why it is WRONG to enter someone else's property WITHOUT their permission is like trying to explain to a thief why it's wrong to steal...they do not see or understand the consequences of their actions so...they don't see it as being wrong...until it happens to them.

I noticed and read what was said...did you actually read what I said...or just gloss over it?


[1] There is but now we have white hats, black hats, grey hats, ...
[2] Agree
[3] Well it's easy for people to become detached from reality when they spend too much time playing with their computers ....

[rubytuesday]

It's a game of catch me if you can crackers and kiddies outwit the authorities do it again
and again they start deluding themselves they won't get caught and theyre untouchable oh
when they are caught they think a big company like Symantec or Mcafee has a job waiting for
them with a nice paycheck lol. Anyone who hires these guys is nuts.








I

[miracle]

Egaldeist,

While I applaud your steadfastness (is that a word?) and convictions, I think you are trying to make this a black and white issue when the world of hacker-dom is most definitely gray in a lot of areas. For example, would you say it is unethical for a hacker to break into a system in order to patch it and make it more secure? What if he/she had warned the admin many times already about the systems vulnerabilities, yet the admin had ignored him/her? And what about someone releasing a worm into the wild that patched and removed a newly circulated worm? Is that unethical? Certainly the above actions are ILLEGAL in most countries, but are they unethical?

Attempting to make physical property (i.e. someones home) analogous to a server on a network just does not work. In fact, analogies do a rather poor job of forming or supporting an argument in this case....they only serve to convolute the issue further.

[warl0ck7]

The point is
On the internet nobody knows you are a dog or a hacker

So lets just chill these issues.

[Egaladeist]

Hi miracle,

I understand what you are saying...however...a computer is a person's property...just like his house or his car...therefore another person does NOT have a right of access to it without the OWNER"S PERMISSION.

I am not talking about worms or viruses ( which is a separate issue )...I am speaking specifically about property violations.

You might put a snake on my lawn ( worm ) and it might find it's way into my home or the house down the street...but...that's not the same as entering my property and changing the locks...is it?!

Now...you said what if it was to protect you? Well...then you knock on the door and if you are refused that's the right of the owner...you do not just circumvent the owner's wishes because you believe you are justified...because you aren't justified.

A computer is a piece of PROPERTY...as such it must be treated in the same way as any property.

Eg ;)

[miracle]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post861867) by Egaladeist

Now...you said what if it was to protect you? Well...then you knock on the door and if you are refused that's the right of the owner...you do not just circumvent the owner's wishes because you believe you are justified...because you aren't justified.

A computer is a piece of PROPERTY...as such it must be treated in the same way as any property.

Eg ;)

I think we're just getting into semantics here, but it's worth discussing. In this case, a persons house is different from a computer. If Joe 6-Pack doesn't secure his home, that's his problem....if someone breaks in illegally, it only affects him, his family, and maybe a neighbor or two. On the other side, if someone doesn't secure his/her computer, it can affect an entire subnet, ISP, or ????

I guess the main points I'm trying to make are these:

-It is certainly illegal to break into someone's computer, but it is not always unethical

-It is just as unethical to break into someones system and do harm as it is for Joe 6-Pack to not take the responsibility of securing his own system

-The content of a hard drive IS property, though it is not in the same category as say, land or someone's home

[Egaladeist]

Hi miracle,

That's where we differ in opinion...I believe there is no substantial difference as far as ownership goes...a computer is the owner's property...the data and contents are the owner's property...the property line is drawn at the connection at the internet...the internet is like a public park that everyone has access to...you still cannot enter the homes surrounding it.

It doesn't matter what justification you may feel a person has...I can justify buying an uzi and killing criminals saying I'm doing it for the public good...they present a security risk to my neighborhood...but that would be JUSTIFICATION IN ONE"S OWN MIND...not actual justification.

Sorry...you're not going to convince me it's OK to take or alter or use someone's property because YOU FEEL they're not being responsible enough.

If I feel you are not taking proper responsibility of your children, your car, your home, your shoes, your dog, or your watch...can I take them from you...or force you to accept my guidance?

That essentially is what you're suggesting...that if someone doesn't properly secure their computer that gives you the right to FORCE your guidance and changes upon them.

It doesn't wash! Unless the person is breaking the law you and no one else has the right to FORCE your judgments or your guidance upon them.

If these HACKERS were as ethical as you claim they are they would be trying to attack the criminals and using their talents in a productive way instead of trying to inflitrate Joe-Nobody's computer.

They would offer their services to the police, the FBI, and track down and shut down child porn sites and spammers and virus writers...but they aren't are they...that's why they're called Hacks...Hacker was NOT a term of endearment when it began and it still isn't.

You can try to justify entering Joe-Shmo's computer but that's just an excuse to be a HACK...if they really wanted justification they would be attacking the people causing the problems...because they're NOT...THEY ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

( exceptions apply...as always...I'm sure not all hackers are attacking Joe-Shmo...and I'm sure some are trying to attack the proper targets...but from what I've read on this site they do not comprise the majority...not by a long shot )

Eg ;)

[carenath]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post861456) by pakbehl
This sounds like an article written by some angry journalist who got a huge credit card bill because he gave it to the wrong unsecured porno site. I can certainly understand somebody's anger at being devastated and emotionally destructed, I've had my things stolen, I've had to deal with virii, but do I write an article that generalizes every single person who ever wrote a virus, sent spam, ran a scam, ripped off the life savings of little old ladies, and found every "parent's" online bank account and called them all "hackers". I will most certainly agree whole heartedly that anyone who would do these terrible things are incredible jerks and should be made to feel what they inflict on others, but I've said 19million times before and I'll say it again these people are not hackers, they are cyber criminals, or whatever kind of criminal you want to call them. I am so sick of constantly arguing with people over the definition of 'hacker'. There are massive groups of law-abiding, tax-paying, PTA attending, hard working, proffesional people in the world that consider themselves hackers and make it known to others that this does not imply that they do anything illegal whatsoever. Yet over and over the media blatantly and rudely demonizes "hackers" and attaches that word to the worst kind of cyber*****s there are.
He speaks up for people who feel the effects of identity theft and the like ever day
Well I and millions of others like me are standing up for peaceful hackers who have to deal with the outrageous terroristic connotations that *random explitive* journalists like him perpetuate without a second thought.

Just thought I'd complain...

Well, I like your style.

I have had the same arguement over the past 15 years that I've all but given up trying to educate people on the difference between a "hacker" and a cyber-criminal.

The original hacker was someone who simply wanted to learn everything they could about a particular computer system/operating system. For example Unix, Windows or DOS.

A cyber criminal, on the other hand, is someone who deleiberately damages, destroys, or steals from a computer network, PC or other information system that they have managed to gain access to.

Are people who write computer viruses (or is it virii) hackers or criminals? Well, it depends on what they wrote it for. If it was to learn how to counter them by learning how they are (or can be) made, then I would classify them as a hacker. If they do so to deliberately infect other systems or cause damage to those systems, then I consider them criminals. After all, I have written my share of computer viruses and have been fortunate that none have ever gotten into "the wild." But they were written in order to learn the different means and ways that they could be "built" so that I could develope means and ways of getting rid of them with little to no loss of data. Or they were written to learn how to recover from them if they DID manage to deliver their "payload" and wipe my data.

Are people who break into other systems hackers or criminals? Again it depends on their motivation: to learn - hacker; to damage or steal - criminal.

The tired old usage of Hacker = criminal is not only unfair to those people who originated the term, but unfair to those who look up to them and want to learn just like they did.

Hacking, phreaking, blue-boxing, etc... Why consider andrelegate those people to the unsavory label of criminal by misusing the term that applies to them; the title of "Hacker"?

Just my 2 cents. Anyone is free to disagree, but at least disagree based on experience and facts, not media hype.

Carenath (Archangel)

[Egaladeist]

Hi carenath,

I refer you back to the post before yours...
They would offer their services to the police, the FBI, and track down and shut down child porn sites and spammers and virus writers...but they aren't are they...that's why they're called Hacks...Hacker was NOT a term of endearment when it began and it still isn't.

You can try to justify entering Joe-Shmo's computer but that's just an excuse to be a HACK...if they really wanted justification they would be attacking the people causing the problems...because they're NOT...THEY ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

your reply..
Are people who break into other systems hackers or criminals? Again it depends on their motivation: to learn - hacker; to damage or steal - criminal.

Let me clarify for the thick-headed : IF YOU ENTER SOMEONE'S ELSE'S COMPUTER WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION YOU"RE A CRIMINAL...PERIOD!

This has nothing to do with media hype...it's about PROPERTY RIGHTS.

Let me ask you a question...is the computer you are " learning ' from yours or someone else's?

If you're using someone's else's computer WITHOUT their PERMISSION you're a criminal...it's no wonder hackers get bad media attention when you justify using SOMEONE ELSE's computer as if you have a right to it...

YOU DON'T!!!!

It's NOT YOUR COMPUTER!!!

What is so freakin' difficult to understand about that? It's NOT your computer! You do not have any rights to property you don't own!

Do you OWN these computers you're ' learning ' from? Are they YOURS? Or are they someone else's?

Repeat after me : I DO NOT OWN THIS COMPUTER...THEREFORE..IT BELONGS TO SOMEONE ELSE...I DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHTS TO USE ANOTHER'S PROPERTY...IT DOES NOT BELONG TO ME...if you repeat this often it just might start to sink in.

Eg ;)

[carenath]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post861874) by Egaladeist
Hi miracle,

..........

If I feel you are not taking proper responsibility of your children, your car, your home, your shoes, your dog, or your watch...can I take them from you...or force you to accept my guidance?

That essentially is what you're suggesting...that if someone doesn't properly secure their computer that gives you the right to FORCE your guidance and changes upon them.

It doesn't wash! Unless the person is breaking the law you and no one else has the right to FORCE your judgments or your guidance upon them.

Eg ;)

Eg

While I have to agree - in principle - to your statement above, in actual fact your arguement is somewhat flawed.

The states and federal government on a regular basis DO tell you what you can do with your own personal property, family, pets, etc...

Look at all of the cases involving Children and Youth (or whatever your particular branch of family services are called). They tell people every day how to raise their children, how to handle problems that their children give, etc... and most of them have never even HAD kids.


As far as your comment re: utilizing our talents in support of the local LEA or whatever... Well, just try going to your local FBI agency and telling them you found a Child porn site and thought they would like to know. I can almost gaurentee that the FISRT person they will look at - and confiscate the system of - is you. :)

[Egaladeist]

Hi carenath,

Yes...the government interferes...and we accept that, in cases of abuse or neglect or criminal action...and they do make mistakes ( on purpose and by accident ), and they should be dealt with accordingly.

And yes...they do say whether or not you'll be allowed a permit for this or that...etc...I do not in every case agree with them either...but that is not the subject here...I said that in context to what was said before.

And I agree that the FBI, etc...might consider you a criminal for bringing something to their attention...it happens.

But where I do not agree is in the total lack of regard hackers seem to have for property rights.

It's very simple...if the computer is in your home it is yours...if it's NOT in your home but someone else's then it's NOT yours.

You have no more right to access a computer in someone else's home than you have a right to their sterio...it's a just because I can senerio...is it OK for me to cut a hole into the wall and tap my neighbor's electricity...just because I can?

Eg ;)

[carenath]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post861952) by Egaladeist
Hi carenath,


Let me clarify for the thick-headed : IF YOU ENTER SOMEONE'S ELSE'S COMPUTER WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION YOU"RE A CRIMINAL...PERIOD!

This has nothing to do with media hype...it's about PROPERTY RIGHTS.

Let me ask you a question...is the computer you are " learning ' from yours or someone else's?



Actually the entire network I hack into belongs to me, and yes, I DO see your point. But please remember, originally, the internet and the systems attached were "fair game" because that was how it originally came about. Sure, MILNET was off limits, but originally the rest was open territory.


If you're using someone's else's computer WITHOUT their PERMISSION you're a criminal...it's no wonder hackers get bad media attention when you justify using SOMEONE ELSE's computer as if you have a right to it...

YOU DON'T!!!!

It's NOT YOUR COMPUTER!!!

Of course. I am not saying it is right, but per my previuos post the government tells us all the time how we may or maynot use our computers all the time. They are even trying to tell adults that they can no longer look at porn (if that is your thing), that you cannot allow children to learn about the human body (because they MIGHT find a porn site rather than a medical or health site) and that they can (and often time DO) read our mail or access our computers WITHOUT ever having to tell us when they are doing so. So, who is the criminal there?


Do you OWN these computers you're ' learning ' from? Are they YOURS? Or are they someone else's?

Eg ;)

Please see my answer above (grin)

Carenath (archangel)

[Egaladeist]

Hi carenath,

See my post above...you got in another one before I did...dial-up. ;)

If that's the case then in my opinion your a security professional like others here...if you are using your own network and/or permission to use...

I would not personally consider you a hacker.

Eg ;)

Perhaps a new name needs to be coined...Internet Specialist?

[carenath]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post861956) by Egaladeist
Hi carenath,

See my post above...you got in another one before I did...dial-up. ;)

If that's the case then in my opinion your a security professional like others here...if you are using your own network and/or permission to use...

I would not personally consider you a hacker.

Eg ;)

Perhaps a new name needs to be coined...Internet Specialist?

Well, I don't know. Sounds like a good of name as any. But remember, too, I STARTED as an original hacker, i.e. breaking into systems and such. Not to do any damage, but to learn. Does this mean I STILL do this? Of course not. That was then and this is now. What I could "get away with" back then would label me a criminal (and at one point almost did) now. So I set my own network up that allows me to attempt any sort of, crack, "hack" or whathaveyou that I wish. Do I allow others to utilize my network for the same purpose? Yes.... and no. It would depend on their reasons for asking for access (what they hope to learn, why they want to learn it), their overall experience, and whether they could provide verifiable references that could give me an indication of just who they are (in a general sense) and what their ethics are.

Do "Hackers" have ethics? Sure.... the original guys like me do. But again, that was when it was okay to hack into the computers of the various educational institutions that started the internet. Our only "limit" (restriction) was to leave MILNET alone.

Carenath

[Egaladeist]

Hi carenath,
Do I allow others to utilize my network for the same purpose? Yes.... and no. It would depend on their reasons for asking for access (what they hope to learn, why they want to learn it), their overall experience, and whether they could provide verifiable references that could give me an indication of just who they are (in a general sense) and what their ethics are.

I agree...and exactly my point...they are your computers so you should have the right to decide who uses them.

peace,

Eg ;)

[My SuperMan Ego]

If that's the case then in my opinion your a security professional like others here...if you are using your own network and/or permission to use...

Im not a professional at anything and I beleave using a computer should be called that and nothing more. After using a computer I for one don't feel that I've become anything.

Seriously guys :rolleyes:

[warl0ck7]

Im not a professional at anything and I beleave using a computer should be called that and nothing more. After using a computer I for one don't feel that I've become anything.

What when you will become one?. You hold the responsibility to your computer and should
make sure it does not harm others or act as a point to harm others ( nobody cares if it harms you).

[XxFrostyxX]

well. there are diffrent types of hackers. ethical, white hat, red hat, deals with linux/unix. etc. theres terrorist hackers and even the U.S. Goverment hacks.. the entire country does. the world does it in one way or another.

[My SuperMan Ego]

What when you will become one? You hold the responsibility to your computer and should make sure it does not harm others or act as a point to harm others ( nobody cares if it harms you I really don't understand your question & frankly I don't see what the rest of your post has to do with what I've just typed.

[Trevoke]

Quit it with the FUD.
Hacker (http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/hacker.html) != Cracker (http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/C/cracker.html)

[My SuperMan Ego]

Quit it with the FUD.
Hacker (http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/hacker.html) != Cracker (http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/C/cracker.html)Im going to quote myself just because im lazy...Look at anyone who just enjoys computers and leaves it at that... this as opposed to anyone who uses the H-word either in the so called "ethical" sense or not you'll notice the difference between the two right way. A "hacker" is someone who has...

A: Turned on their computer in the hopes and dreams of "being something" and/or "being known for something".

B: Set themselves apart from any random Joe on the internet by appointing themselves and people around them "hackers" and maybe even other various words of self importance despite how limited they actually are as far as computers go.

Oh and my favorite at the moment C: Gets defensive and angry when you sum it up in a way they feel some how hurts their image.

IMHO, the word "hacker" clearly has no positive connotations as far as computers go and this thread is proof. Don't hand me your crap just because you're view of things is entirely based around what you've read in that hacker-faq thingie. You can keep trying to define some word but I have a couple of words to define the people who constantly use it...

Self important - God forbid you admit your not above the average user. Using a computer doesn't "make you into anything special".

[zencoder]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post862392) by My SuperMan Ego
Im going to quote myself just because im lazy...

IMHO, the word "hacker" clearly has no positive connotations as far as computers go and this thread is proof. Don't hand me your crap just because you're view of things is entirely based around what you've read in that hacker-faq thingie. You can keep trying to define some word but I have a couple of words to define the people who constantly use it...

Self important - God forbid you admit your just average user. Using a computer doesn't "make you into anything special".

So, I guess welcome back is in order. Are you gonna play nice this time?

You guys know what the swaistika stands for? What it stood before prior to the 1930's? Popular culture has a lot of influence on the icons and symbols we live by...one's choice to adhere to, or discard the values associated with those symbols is purely personal, as long as you recognize that the symbol you value in one light may not be seen the same way by those who see it in another light.

As for arguing about this word and it's use...c'mon. We've been there and done that many times before. Isn't there anything VALUABLE to discuss these days?

[warl0ck7]

As for arguing about this word and it's use...c'mon. We've been there and done that many times before. Isn't there anything VALUABLE to discuss these days?

It is never too late or unvalauable to discuss basics and ethics.

[DjM]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post862394) by zencoder
So, I guess welcome back is in order. Are you gonna play nice this time?

You guys know what the swaistika stands for? What it stood before prior to the 1930's? Popular culture has a lot of influence on the icons and symbols we live by...one's choice to adhere to, or discard the values associated with those symbols is purely personal, as long as you recognize that the symbol you value in one light may not be seen the same way by those who see it in another light.

As for arguing about this word and it's use...c'mon. We've been there and done that many times before. Isn't there anything VALUABLE to discuss these days?

Hey zen, is "My Superman ego " our old "special" friend?

Cheers:

[nihil]

OK, like Zen~ I think that this subject has been somewhat "overworked" of late :)

However, as we have a number of students as visitors and members, I thought that this paper on the subject might be useful:

http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~cs3604/lib/Hacking/MacMillan.Hacking.html

It is more history/etymology than ethics and morality.

Most people asked to write a paper on "hacking" would go technical/ethical/moral..............if you incorporate a bit of this stuff, your paper should stand out above the rest ;)

That is called "examination technique" not "cheating"

:D

[Egaladeist]

Hi zencoder,

I actually just posted the OP because I thought it was interesting...then...8 replies later I decided to stick my neck in :D...

there are three things I noticed about this thread...

1. most of the replies came from newbies...

2. the internet seems to lack the clear understanding and value of property rights...

and...

3. 60 posts and 1775 veiws later...more than three times the veiws of any other thread started lately...this topic obviously is no where near the point of lack of interest...even if it has been overdone

Eg ;)

[nihil]

Hey EG~ I think that it was your "catchy title" that did it :D

Seriously though, I think that the subject is of interest to our student readers because it is a favourite for essays/discussions/papers.

That is why I stuck that link in ;)

[zencoder]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post862396) by warl0ck7
It is never too late or unvalauable to discuss basics and ethics.

I agree completely! Here here!!! (or is it Hear hear?)

Can we please DO THAT instead of attacking people and complaining about whether a word is used properly or not by the massmedia/technophile subculture/suburban AOL community?

Do I consider myself a hacker? Does it matter? Do I think hackers are good, bad, ugly, indifferent, or <insert your word of choice here>? DOES IT REALLY MATTER?

C'mon people. Use a little common sense, and try to recognize what context the poster is using the word in. I use 'hacker' all the time, both the positive and the negative connotations. In spoken communication, I can usually tell if my meaning has been misinterpreted. It's basic friggin' human interaction.

Get over yourselves. You are hardly as important or influential as you think you are. Hell, I have to tell myself this same thing every day.



Originally posted here (http://www.antionline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614&pagenumber=3#post862397) by DjM
Hey zen, is "My Superman ego " our old "special" friend?



I dunno, but it sure seems that way.

[Egaladeist]

Hi nihil,

I agree...this seems like a topic most geared toward newbies/students...as per the posts...I tried my best to steer the direction of the conversation toward property rights but they would steer it back toward hacking :D ...
the never-ending struggle between age and youth :D

Eg ;)

[Aspman]

'hacker' is a word I really try not to use anymore. There is just too much baggage with the word and too many assumptions made by other people when you do use it. It's meaning is not clear enough anymore.

If anyone says they are a hacker to me, my first thoughts are of skiddies. It's just how the word is tainted in my mind.

[warl0ck7]

Maybe we should start using words like ninja and samurai instead of hackers :rolleyes:

[zencoder]

codewarrior?
network zen master?
packet craftsman? (ooh, I like this one)
Security Warrior is already taken by O'Reilly...

[ash897]

Hackers are not all bad.... but there are some idiots out there.

As someone investing in a future in 'computer security' I have found it invaluable to actually learn how the whole hacking process works - this allows me to better understand what im protecting.

For example, taking a 'CEH' course (certified ethical hacker) will make you better equiped to protect your network. There are many different names to distinguish advanced computer users: Black hat hacker, White hat hacker.... cracker... cyber criminal - whatever, im not disputing the different deffinitions here.

Please dont tar all hackers with the same brush, though I have my own network to break into, when I started out I have no other option but to play woth other peoples boxes.... of course I never damaged of defaced, nor did I steal information.

The media over plays stories and has made this scare culture... they make us think anyone with a backpack or a big coat is probably a terrorist. Dont let the actions of the few effect the views of the many.

[Egaladeist]

Hi ash897,

It only takes one to destroy the reputation of many...

one bad apple destroys the whole barrel...

a man will always be remembered for his mistakes...

make one mistake and all the good you have done is quickly forgotten...

( insert your cliche' here )

the term ' hacker ' is a lost word...like the word god...it has sooooo many attached meanings and definitions that it has become rendered useless to define anything accurately.

Eg ;)

[WolfRune]

Hey, I've got a title we could adopt: Sneaker! *LOL* Ah Dan Akroyd, where would we be without you?

IMDB Entry for "Sneakers (1992)" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/)

*NOTE: To those who might not realize it, I'm NOT serious about this suggestion, just thought I'd throw it in there to further stir the pot :firedevil

[My SuperMan Ego]

As someone investing in a future in 'computer security' I have found it invaluable to actually learn how the whole hacking process works - this allows me to better understand what im protecting.

For example, taking a 'CEH' course (certified ethical hacker) will make you better equiped to protect your network.I really don't understand the concept behind paying a few hundred bucks just for the 101 portion of most cons and stuff here in Atlanta. In the end what does any of of this have to do with auditing and prevention?

There are many different names to distinguish advanced computer usersIm sure most people wouldn't be dumb enought to say that they are advanced in anything at all. Shit, talk about a SuperMan Ego! Why do you give an exception to people who go around calling themselves and others the H-word? Frankly if I ask you to name a couple of things which make these people seem exceptionally smart or even interesting... it would take you quite awhile to come up with something wouldn't it?

[warl0ck7]

On the internet it is not hard to find

People who know everything about nothing.

[x acidreign x]

Got in late on this thread.

This Article was written by Kelly Martin of SecurityFocus
emails:
kmartin@pyrzqxgl.org
kellym@fb.org
kel@securityfocus.com

I'd say either she's smart and she's trying to provoke us, or she's very very stupid. Either way, let's see how she likes it when I come out with my five-part series of penetrating articles Entitled; "security journalists are all child molestors."

>X-P bitch.

Hackers and people who commit computer crimes are about as alike as carpet salesmen and drug dealers. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, there are hackers who commit computer crimes, just like I'm sure there are carpet salesmen who sling crack in their spare time, but to generalize one as the other is a sign of unforgivable ignorance, especially on the part of someone who is under the pretense of having a scrap of journalistic integrity. I hope someone who reads that article buys a thousand strapons with your credit card and rapes you to death with them, you impotent retard.

[Egaladeist]

x acidreign x,
but to generalize one as the other is a sign of unforgivable ignorance, especially on the part of someone who is under the pretense of having a scrap of journalistic integrity. I hope someone who reads that article buys a thousand strapons with your credit card and rapes you to death with them, you impotent retard.
For one thing...the term ' hacker ' is now a generalized term...to the general public...those who consider themselves the ' hacker ' elite ( the good guys ) may want to disregard this fact but it's a fact nonetheless...you can call it ' unforgivable ignorance ' but that's the ' hackers ' fault for letting their term fall to the wayside and allowing it to be used in the same sentence with criminal crackers...
I read the article...and I posted it because it was an editor from Security Focus and not some joe-whomever who has a problem with hackers...and I don't consider myself a retard...and I'm certainly not impotent...( I realize you probably meant that last remark to Kelly Martin ).

Eg ;)

[My SuperMan Ego]

Trust me... for most of the so called "criminals" or whatnot, the entire thing is totally tongue-in-cheek anyway. You don't really see other people trying to ride the hacker this and that trip niether... or atleast not anyone particularly smart.

All these kids on t3h l337 h4xaR jazz... I'll generalize them as morons. And why would that be ignorant when thats exactly the type of thing they attempt to set themselves apart as.

[warl0ck7]

I think media blows everything out of propotion, so did they the term 'hacker'.

[x acidreign x]

Originally posted here (http://www.AntiOnline.com/showthread.php?threadid=270614#post862940) by Egaladeist
x acidreign x,

For one thing...the term ' hacker ' is now a generalized term...to the general public...those who consider themselves the ' hacker ' elite ( the good guys ) may want to disregard this fact but it's a fact nonetheless...you can call it ' unforgivable ignorance ' but that's the ' hackers ' fault for letting their term fall to the wayside and allowing it to be used in the same sentence with criminal crackers...
I read the article...and I posted it because it was an editor from Security Focus and not some joe-whomever who has a problem with hackers...and I don't consider myself a retard...and I'm certainly not impotent...( I realize you probably meant that last remark to Kelly Martin ).

Eg ;)

none of the insulting language in my post was for you, Eg, it was all for her, I was responding to the article, not your post about it.

The fact that the term "hacker" has entered the public discourse as being synonymous with computer criminal is not an excuse for her misuse of it. She is a professional who should know better than to further a misconception like that. Why is it an unforgivable politically incorrect foible to use the term "preist" to describe all child molestors even though the only preists who make the news ARE child molestors. It's considered a "cheap shot" to say that all preists are child molestors, even as a joke. but it's perfectly alright to do the EXACT same thing to hackers. To single hackers out as being criminals simply because so many computer criminals are given a title they don't deserve and touted as hackers in the media is no different. Hackers are simply extremely skilled computer users. Some of the more elitist of us use the term specifically for the security feild, but generally, the accepted definition is "computer expert". How does this have anything to do with crime? This is no different than referring to armed robbers as olympic marksmen. I'm not going to say that no olympic marksman has ever committed an armed robbery, and it's certain that all armed robbers are not olympic marksmen. But to sully the name of an admirable and difficult to attain title like that by equating it with petty crime is sick. Not all hackers are computer criminals and not all computer criminals are hackers.

Imagine a news story that went like this:

"CHAPEL HILL — When Sheila Bryan learned a preist had moved in next door, she painted a red-letter message on a white towel and tacked it to her garage: “Keep Coker Hills Rapist Free.”

In response, James Michael Walters has circulated through the neighborhood association a written explanation on how he came to be a preist.

Walters, 35, was convicted of second-degree rape of a girl in 1993 in Robeson County.

He originally was charged with first-degree statutory rape of a child under the age of 13. In the statement Walters released last week, he said he never raped the girl but merely fondled her with her consent when she was 13."


This is an actual news story from a newspaper website with the words "registered sex offender" replaced with "preist", now imagine how quick they would FIRE the mother****er who wrote it.

[Egaladeist]

Hi x acidreign x,
She is a professional who should know better than to further a misconception like that
I agree 100% that she is only perpetuating the sterio-type...and as a professional should show some professional courtesy.
If more securirty professionals and internet news media started to clearly define the borders between a Hacker and it's criminal counter-part, then the public would begin to see more clearly where that line is drawn and their perceptions would change accordingly.

Until such time...my definition that there is no clear definition or distinction only shows that that line is becoming more faded every day.

Eg ;)

[Agent_Steal]

Just curious x acidreign x did you actually read the article[1] ? it's quite interesting ..B.T.W. Kelly Martin is a he not a she ....

[1] Crime ? What crime ? (http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/355)

On one side you have a group of people who see nothing wrong with breaking into systems and calling themselves "hackers" , while on the other side the good side you have a group of people who spent a good amount of time selling you snake oil ... difference being ???

Like he says people spend a good deal amount of time breaking the system on both sides when they should be spending more time improving it .... That's why I believe he used the word "hacker" cause well it's real meaning has just being lost and well who cares really ???

I do think that the title "Hackers are all bastards" is really misleading ... He does mention the word but I do not think that he was trying to say that all hackers are bastards ...


any shy or docile human being can become the world's nastiest bastard of a hacker


I think that's enough rambling ....

[Egaladeist]

Hi As,

I guess I made that same gender assumption...of course I come from a generation where names were clearly defined...all Kelly's I knew were girls...like the Johnny Cash song ' A boy named Sue ' not too many parents gave boys girl's names.

On one side you have a group of people who see nothing wrong with breaking into systems and calling themselves "hackers" , while on the other side the good side you have a group of people who spent a good amount of time selling you snake oil ... difference being ???

Like I said...it is cloudy...if these Hackers would all start utilizing their talents to put spammers, virus/trojan writers, crackers, phishers, child pr0ners, etc...out of business...the perception of the term Hackers would greatly increase as being associated with ' the good guys '...but when you have people like Milnik calling himself an ex-hacker in reference to being ' one of the bad guys ' then of course the general public is going to see the term Hacker as a bad thing.

Eg ;)

[Agent_Steal]

Hi there Egaladeist


if these Hackers would all start utilizing their talents to put spammers, virus/trojan writers, crackers, phishers, child pr0ners, etc..


Actually Egaladeist he does mention that in his article ... But then what would they do for work ???


It was much easier to attack systems back then, too, but few people bothered -- everyone was more interested in making it all work and in building new and amazing things



And then in the last five years, it's become all about penetration-exploit-and-profit, and actually quite nasty.


But this is were most things have gone know .. Both with criminals and corporates

I think that both sides are responsible for the damage that has been going on ... It's always much easier to put the blame on one side then actually look at oneself and ponder. Corporate Company Guy : What have I done to cause this ???

B.T.W. you should take a look at all the replies that he has gotten pretty crazy ..

[x acidreign x]

terribly sorry, HE should be raped to death with a thousand strapons. lol.

Yes, I read the article, the language in it is somewhat more dosile than the bold faced ignorance in the title, but the generalization is what really bugs me, I pride myself on my hacker status, I've made alot of sacrifices to get where I am and people have got me grouped together with the very scumbag *******s I'm sworn to protect them from.

[Agent_Steal]

Hi there x acidreign x I think that the line is so thin nowadays that's it probably too hard to tell who is a hacker and who isn't ... Hell you got so many damn titles thrown around that people are like uh w.t.f. White Hat, Black Hat, Grey Hat, Cracker, Hacker , Script Kiddie ???

Hell with it lets just call them all Hackers so much easier ....

[Egaladeist]

Aye x acidreign x,

Tis' thy life of thy Hero young Knight, don't ya let it be frettin' ya none, all o' thy guts and none of the glory, someone has to pay thy price...don't be frettin' ya'll not be ov'r looked, ya deservin' a King's ransom ya'll be gettin' one I'm sure.

My extremely ba...excellent impression of Sean Connery :D

( it's 5:49am and I've been up vitually all night...impressions of 15th century Scots tells me I should have went to bed hours ago :D )

Eg ;)