Kevin Mitnick To Sue Carolyn Meinel

Greetings All:

Ok, say what you will about Carolyn Meinel. You may view her as a security expert, or as a crazy old woman who doesn't know dos from unix. Either way, I hope you find yourself as shocked and outraged as I was when I read the following:

http://www.happyhacker.org/gtmhh/mitnickcomplaint.shtml

It appears that convicted felon, and self proclaimed bullshitter (erm, I'm sorry "social engineer") Kevin Mitnick is planning on filing suit against her because of a small side-note in one of her Happy Hacker Guides which claims that Kevin Mitnick can't program.

Yes, you read that right. The very man who's spent a good portion of his adult life bitching and moaning about the US Legal System and Freedom of Speech and Information is going to sue some old lady because she wrote 1 sentence on a website claiming that he can't program to save his life, or even his career for that matter (If you could call running a security company who's website gets hacked every other day a career).

Obviously, this goes to demonstrate how vulnerable of a position Mitnick finds himself in. He's got the difficult task of trying to convince people that he's a "security expert" and not just some 2 bit petty bullshitter (which are, by the way, a dime a dozen). If he manages to accomplish that, I say three cheers to him, for being even a better bullshitter than everyone already suspects.

I'll probably get sued by him now, too. "Mr. Vranesevich, I will love to see you prove in a court of law that I have ever actually extricated bovine dung".......

Oh well, if you'd like to shoot him off an e-mail to remind him that he's stupid, here it is: [email protected]

Again, I see you have been doing your homework JP. I, for some reason, thought he was not supposed to use the internet or computer equipment of any kind until his parol is up. I must have been grossly misinformed. I bet he will just love the thousands of nice e-mails he will soon receive. ;)

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Originally posted here by aeallison
Again, I see you have been doing your homework JP. I, for some reason, thought he was not supposed to use the internet or computer equipment of any kind until his parol is up. I must have been grossly misinformed. I bet he will just love the thousands of nice e-mails he will soon receive. ;)

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His parole ended back in January sometime I believe, He was on TechTV to connect to the Internet for the first time since he got busted.

Not being an expert in coding or hacking myself I can't say much for Kevin Mitnick's skills or lack thereof.

Having read his book I would say that if one can con their way past most defenses or use "social engineering" to get users to volunteer network and domain information and even usernames and passwords- you don't really need as much in the way of hacking skills.

I can break into XYZ company by being an l33t h4x0r who knows how to footprint and profile my target and hack my way through, or I can get the secretary of the president of the company to volunteer the president's username and password and just waltz in unnoticed.

To me, Kevin Mitnick seems like the main characters in Fletch or Beverly Hills Cop- able to walk into a situation and on the spur of the moment adopt a new persona to try and gain information or access. He may be able to program or hack as well, but it doesn't seem like that is his strength per se.

In his defense, while it doesn't bode well for a security firm's web servers to get hacked, he isn't personally securing or administering them so I don't think its a comment on his skills. Perhaps they should fire the web server admin and get one that can secure it better. But, being the notorious hacker he is- coding skills or not- marks him as a target for newbies and script-kiddies who want to feel good by saying they hacked the infamous Kevin Mitnick.

Well, first of all, it wasn't one sentence. It's an entire article about how she , once again, tries to prove to the world that she knows everything about everybody, meanwhile her investigative+ journalist skills reminds me of some amateur kid trying to get his name through
the local community board paper. She's not even Al Jazeera's material. To me, it just seems like another opportunity to get some attention, using Mitnick's name and until I see this story being reported through some trustworthy news media, I don't buy it.

Your definitions of a felon is kind of scary for someone who is suppost to be against the common ignorant bias views. People go in and out of jail, for many different reasons and many sucessfully regain control of their lives. For whatever reasons Mitnick was arrested, he surely has done his time. The Constitution of this country will not only defend those with a clean criminal record, but also those who may have sometime of their life made a mistake. If he tries to make a buck or two out of his reputation, so do you and meinel.

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I'm not required by law to provide you proof of anything. I've requested that you immediately remove these defamatory statements. You declined my offer. As such, you are acting with actual malice in your efforts to defame me.

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:rofl: whatta weenie. If you are a known bullshitter, chances are people are not going to believe you in life and (duh) in a court of law. In fact, credibility is integral to any case and can very well make or break a jury's decision on your fate.

With that said, let's take a look at credibility here for a second. Kevin Mitnick is a kiddie bullshitter that spent a good portion of his life doing these things. Like Carolyn Meinel said,

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You wrote a book on how to deceive people. So in order for me to accept the concept that certain forensic investigators have provided me with false and defamatory information about you, you would need to go the extra mile in making it possible for me to verify your allegation that you were a programmer and had never asked for help compiling programs at the time of your last arrest.

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That makes sense. The bottom line is, when you write the book on bullshit, chances are that's all you are going to be, and nobody is gonna care one way or another.

...and you can take that to yer lawyers.

Damn they gonna show it on tv? Battle of the Half Baked Hackers IV , id pay to see them mud wrestle for more media attention :)

cmon who wants to go into the Tv industry, we`ll sell the rights to sky and retire :)

Preep

for a "master of social engineering" and all the hype that surrounded that book of his, i could not say that i was impressed by any of it at all. i was a salesmen doing cold calls for 3 years, and i think i've tried about every trick in the book. i have to say all the scenarios he describes are far fetched and boarderline hilarious. I don't see any of them working in the real world.

if you want to see an excellent example of social engineering, see the movie Catch Me If You Can :)

I 've read all the email correspondence between Kevin and Carolyn and came to conclusion that what a lame Kevin is? But truth always hurts. Ha

JP you'll be lucky if Carolyn Meinel dosn't sue you for calling her an old lady!

Mitnick is an idiot. I've always thought that. It's sad that the hacker community has sort of named him as their public leader.
He did stupid things.
He got caught.
He got what he deserved.

Now he's profiting from it, I would of thought this is the worst thing he could do if he wants to be popular, because his case is stupid. I'm guessing he's going for slander, or something similiar, of which you have to prove that you have lost out financially or have been emotionally hurt by remarks made about you specifically in a publically-available way.

This'll get chucked out of caught in seconds.

Someone should send him the URL to this thread.

He's laughable.

i agree- mitnick wasn't exactly a role model-
and it makes me sick when i see him on the "screen savers", blah!
he was never l33t- heck he got busted before "l33t" was around... :D

he's just an old washed out h4x0r trying get media time!

From what I've read in both their books (Happy Hacker and The Art of Security - or something along those lines), neither of the two "hackers" (and I use that term *very* loosely) know that much about security or even computers in general. A lot of the "tips" in Happy Hacker actually come from other people - and Carolyn even admits this in the book!

I can't believe that I actually wasted my money on them - a lot of the "social engineering" that Kevin talks about is purely common sense, and most businesses that I know certainly wouldn't let you wander about on the premises at night and use their computers without first asking who you are. My college has better security than the companies discussed in that book.

If you want to read a book by true hackers, try Richard Stallman's "Free as in Freedom" or Eric S. Raymond's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", both from O'Reilly. They don't cover computer security per se, but they're both excellent books (especially the C&B) and you'll learn more from reading one chapter of them than both of the previously mentioned titles.

mitnick was a "hacker" for his day, however he spent like 3 or 4 years in prison and alot of **** has happend sense then. I dont think he will ever be a "security expert" in the sense that we think of. He has gotten as far as he has by his criminal fame, and i have to agree.....it is pretty hypocritical to spew words constantly like freedom of speech and such when he just turns around only to sue someone for there opinon. If he has to sue someone just to prove that he can program then i think there some underlying insecureities.And if his reason for doing this is to not allow her to "discredit" his skills then sueing her is not the way....he needs to prove himdelf to people that he can keep up in the security world, that hes not just a burnout.So instead of wasting his time with this bullshit, he needs to be reading up on the latest exploit/vulnerbility and start finding ways to counter it.So in summary.....STOP BITCHIN KEVIN,GET OVER IT.....thats all ihave to say about that.

Hrrmm, its seems a lot of this thread is bitching about him bitching which seems stupid, not to mention hipocritical. Anyways not that I'm a fan of the guy but let him be, people who know **** know when bs is coming so who cares about the rest.

When I first got interested in computers Carolyn was the one that steered me away from the lawlessness of the net and helped me begin to explore some of the real possibilities the internet had for individuals thatt wanted to live a life of integrity. Before I got to www.happyhacker.org I was unaware of most laws governing the use of the internet, nor was I aware that there were sites like this that promote responsible use of the 'net.
Mitnik became a legend just like those innocents, Bonnie and Clyde.LMAO!!!
hiring Mitnick would like putting a paroled bankrobber in charge of bank security.Yhe people I ,currently, have the most respect for are the members here that remember when they didn't know it all and share their knowledge and resources with the likes of me. That is who I hope to emulate when it is my turn to pass on my knowledge.

does that mean i can sue anyone thats ever said something against me..... seems acording to mitnick rules i can... hmmm..... time to go looking for some poor saps that dont like me

LOL....It kinda reminds me of another Security Guru and his threats to sue..... :D ...

"When I first got interested in computers Carolyn was the one that steered me away from the lawlessness of the net and helped me begin to explore some of the real possibilities the internet had for individuals thatt wanted to live a life of integrity. Before I got to www.happyhacker.org I was unaware of most laws governing the use of the internet, nor was I aware that there were sites like this that promote responsible use of the 'net. "

haha I was so waiting for 'LMAO YEAH RIGHT!!' at the end of that sentance.


I don't see how bitchin` about Mitnick is 'hipocritical', you know what hypocritical means mate? Entirely wrong context.

I think it's sad Mitnick believes he has something to prove my making it apparent he can program, does he really think to be a good security specialist involves you writing code?
Sure it helps but especially with his 'defensive thinking (.com)' website I don't see any apparent link between being a security specialist and coding.

I learn to code in something if I need it, I code something because I need it and intend to use it, I don't learn to code inorder to say I can code.

I'll never see him as a hacker, as when you look at his crimes they're more of a fraud/conman nature, if he likes to link that with being a hacker then that's the kind of guy you have sticking the wrong definition of `hacker' in the dictionary.

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Originally posted here by ReLik
I don't see how bitchin` about Mitnick is 'hipocritical', you know what hypocritical means mate? Entirely wrong context.

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Bitchin' 'bout mitnick isn't hipocritical however bitching because he was bitching is, now do you get the context?

i think we can all agree that, regardless of whether or not these two know what they're talking about, they whine entirely too much? i will say that mitnick was treated unfairly by the government, but that's all over now. there's no way in hell that he will get any type of recompense for what wrong was done to him. had he not been completely stupid in the ways of...generally smart people(?), he wouldn't have had this problem. so he should just shut his damned mouth now. bernie s. was one person who was royally ****ed by our legal system. and what has happened to him? well, i really don't know... ;)

wow...in that whole paragraph, i don't think i said anything interesting...

if mitnick can indeed program, then what she did is called slander, and she deserves to be sued.
I don't think much of mitnick myself, he seems to whine alot for someone who got caught doing wrong.

as for happyhacker.org... don't take anything on that site seriously, it quite literally confuses you and muddles up your own ideas more than anything else

It's great that's he standing up for himself and suing these sob's he's been treatead so bad by the government they deserve what they get.

lol, what was that? you DO understand that he isn't suing the govt, he's suing an old woman...which is a joke in itself, but i won't get into that...i like old people! :)

Or you can read these articles about Mz Meinel for another view of her.

http://www.landfield.com/isn/mail-ar.../Nov/0040.html
http://www.attrition.org/shame/hist.html

Personally, I don't care either way.

Can you really sue Harvard for what some else puts on a web page ? At least the threat caused them to dump the web page.

Well, I don't know Ms Meinel nor do I know Mr. Mitnick but I believe when someone makes a claim -- libelous or slanderous -- it damages their reputation. It doesn't matter whether it's true or not, it's the fact that it did damage. It will be up to Mitnick not to prove whether he can program or not but whether they are defamatory.

From the second reference below:

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..a public figure must prove that a reporter not only published false information but also did so recklessly and maliciously without attempting to determine whether it was true. Libel cases are not limited to disputes between the media and the people they cover.

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So the onus will be on Mr. Mitnick to prove that what Ms. Meinel did, she did with recklessness and maliciously. If she presented it with her opinion, she may have it difficult to defend against this.

What I would wonder is how legitimate is this case? I don't think Ms. Meinel is the only one who espoused that he "cannot program". I haven't read Takedown yet but I believe it mentions in there the same thing. All said and done, it shall be interesting.

http://www.newsdesk-uk.com/law/libelcheck.shtml

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/press/press08.htm

free kevin

How does this link with Mitnick?

i never knew who this Kevin guy was until he was on "TheScreenSavers" and still didn't undrestand much after that either. That said ladybug and tonybradly are right as well as the rest but the points they (tony and lady) were trying to make seem closer to what this whole spiel was about anyway.
Both Kevin and Meinel want fame and both got it through various, if not, unscrupulous ways. Yes it seems ridiculous for Kevin to be complaining about such things b/c if he was a progger then he should just let slide off his back and for Meinel, methinks she thinks Kevin received more credit than he should've (and more notoriety i maight add) and she didn't/doesn;t like it

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Originally posted here by Kahless720
free kevin

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Umm.. Kevin is free. He's been sans-parole as of January of this year.

/me puts them both in a box and burys them

they are both little children
if they bothed died right now the world would be a better place
all law suits please forward them to my lawyers
thank you
rioter

You know, I was just thinking about something (and if it seems outlandish, I'm going on very little sleep and a bad headcold of some type -- that's my excuse anyways). All of these lawsuit "claims" are right now being done via email. Is it in fact Mr. Mitnick doing this? Until there is a court document, it could be anyone who is claiming to be Mr. Mitnick. As we know, his website was "defaced" at least once. Who says his email server hasn't been compromised?

Anyways, random thought.

Sitenote from me:
In the netherlands this isn't possible. We can't sue eachother for a humiliating sentence or something like that. Or well, you could sue someone, but you would only degrade yourself and judges and whoever is in the courtroom will laugh at you and just drop the case, it is imo bullshit. It's not only about mitnick useing it, but the United States rights and laws system needing to protect someones ego... Some dutch writer wrote about that, when people don't seem to care about their own pride in such mather, they feel strong enough to not need anything like that. I heard many stories like this. A man sueing a magnetron country because the manual didn't say it wouldn't be smart to put yer cat in the magnetron... Come one, is this just dumb or was that guy I accidentaly listened to at oprah winfrey (talking about the US of A is based on fear) really actually right ?

msmittins i thought the same thing but in reverse what if the bitch is jus making things up to attract buisness to her failing sites and books :)
just a thought
rioter

For Mr. Mitnick to prove that this article libelled him under tort law, I believe (and I'm no esq) he (Mitnick) would have to prove he had a reputation to damage that would cause him loss of business, friends, etc. Further, depending on the state or even country this suit would have to be filed, I wonder what judge would want to touch this case? This whole thing would fall under defamation, but this involves damaging someone's "good" reputation. It appears even here in this thread, that Mr. Mitnik's "good" reputation would be in question before the suit even begins. If nothing else, I would enjoy just being in the courtroom for this.

Sources:
http://www.findlaw.com

West Business Law Interactive CD-ROM.

Mitnick must have found the article when he was studying how to be a "hacker" in his spare time. :D

What's with everybody suing everybody? Can't they think of a better way of solving these little disputes, like stripping to the waist and wrestling in a vat of grease. It would more mature, more fun to watch and no lawyers would get rich from it (unless someone sprains an ankle and sues). ;)

Well.. whatever the outcome in court..

in real life theyre only two losers !!

and about the screensavers stuff http://www.joyoftech.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/432.html

Uh-oh! He's gonna have to sue ScreenSavers as well! =P

I am studying business law, and from what I have seen, I would have to ask Mitnick -> Man - is this tripe worth the hassle? Not only that, but if this case could be appealed and add to the bullstein for time, resources and not really produce anything worthwhile. This leads me to believe that these people have too much time on their hands to 1) make the comments in the first place and 2) even consider seeking legal action. What would Mitnick do if Jay Leno or Conan O'Brien tell the world he could not program or wipe his own nose? I may have to follow Homer's lead and stick the crayon back up my nose and into my brain.

:ubergun: