Let the finger pointing begin

[westin]

I remember that, but I think it was "air traffic control" rather than autopilot

Heh. That makes more sense. :-P

[nihil]

There is going to be a lot of finger pointing here, but I don't believe that computer systems were at fault................

People can generally tell how things are running based purely on the look and sound of the machines they're working on. The people in little comfortable booths with computers are generally lead-men which well... lets put it this way, some are actually out there helping while others are in their booths.

That is oh so true!

The guys had several "kicks" before the big one................they were just good little company bunnies looking for their bonus..............11 guys died, and that should not have happened!!!

I do remember 31/12 at 24.00 hrs..............so I am about 120 feet in the air dipping this cyclohexane tank..............the company guy says "keep low boss, or they will see you from the control tower"..............I says "why would that be a problem, I'm the bloody auditor!"

"Ah! we're supposed to wear breathing apparatus"...................

John Wayne has been dead for several years now...........time for a culture shift?

I am afraid that the oil industry has this "gung-ho" macho image which seems to suck its workers in?

[gore]

I'm with the lawsuit. Bout time someone calls them out on all those "leaks" LOL OMG..... The Ocean is supposed to be blue and they turn it black with oil, which makes that funny again because the original BSOD was "Black Screen of Death" and for all the sea creatures down there, THAT'S WHAT THEY SEE! .... Man, I should have read this earlier, I've had a screwed up week. Well, two really.

Remember the good old days when Microsoft had on their web site for Windows NT that you should reboot every 6 weeks to "Clear out all Memory Leaks" ? And then they took it down when Linux got to be a real competition to it?

I'm wondering which version they had. Then again, I don't care, it's funny. They're blamed everything from parts to lazy cheap Corporate people, all of which were probably true. But this, WOW! "Sir, the machine stopping us from destroying the Ocean is running Windows and you told me to ignore that jerk on AO that Windows shouldn't be trusted on anything critical what do I do?"....*Phone call to Microsoft later* "Reinstall the ****ing OS!?!?!? We CAN'T!"....

I've had to call them ONCE. I've called Microsoft, ONCE. And that is indeed what I was told, and it was about a year and a half ago.

[nihil]

Hmmmmm,

because the original BSOD was "Black Screen of Death"

Those were the days of "green screen" (or orange), but they were monochromatic (B & W) rather than colour. I honestly cannot remember, but did you get the little blinking cursor in the very top left of your screen?

Remember the good old days when Microsoft had on their web site for Windows NT that you should reboot every 6 weeks to "Clear out all Memory Leaks" ?

Windows NT (4.0) was quite good at handling that as I recall............just M$s partners in crime, who wrote the apps, were not.

This is not a computer issue..............that kind of safety equipment works on direct links through control channels running embedded systems at best. Basically unmanned fire and burglar alarms. The BOP failed............they knew it was defective and leaked...........but they went onwards?

Hell, no more than 6 months earlier they were told to stop drilling because the BOP failed its test. This was at 10,000 psi................so they re-tested at 6,500 psi and it passed......... that's why the FEDs are in there

I've had to call them ONCE. I've called Microsoft, ONCE. And that is indeed what I was told, and it was about a year and a half ago.

I have called them 4 times in my life...............3x to report bugs and once to scrounge a copy of DOS 3.3 on 5.25" floppies. That came next day, complete with manual..............(no charge) I guess that is why I don't knock Microsoft........... they still have a few good people left?

Cheers

EDIT:

There are currently around 27,000 abandoned oil bores in the Gulf of Mexico............the other week a tugboat hit one............I saw the pictures.........brown garbage spewing at least 100 feet in the air....several are leaking all the time............time for Federal legislation here?............. and you know how much I hate "Nanny State" ?

The real problem is that nobody monitors them; and once the guys have given up on the well they just don't care?.............where is the responsibility?

[morganlefay]

As stated previously...a poor workman blames his tools....only an idiot would blame the OS.

The machine was unstable...not due to the OS...but to the poor configuration of the machine...and or a hardware issue. The machine was regularly crashing 6 weeks before the disaster .....somebody dropped the ball...and it wasnt MS.

Oh and BTW...I regularly work with MS...and am currently using their professional services for an implementation and migration of a legacy database.

To use a blanket statement like they advised you to reinstall the OS shows your total lack of experience working with their product and arrogance of youth.

I have had very good experiences with their server applications support...plus they have excellent resources such as their newsgroups and KB.

MLF

[morganlefay]

well from my experience working with engineers a several different sites....

they know everything

MLF

[nihil]

Been there!

I guess someone thought that if they got an IT guy in then the answer would be "replace" or "reinstall and reconfigure", which would have cost them drilling time.

It is obvious that someone there knew how to reboot the thing, and that someone decided to go with that rather than get it fixed?

Given that the operation was costing $42,000 an hour, you would have thought they would have had a redundant machine ready to take over?

I don't know who the project manager was but they certainly need to brush up on their business continuity and contingency planning.

[westin]

LOL -- I drink because you cry snuggles.

[gore]

Lol. OK, a few things:

Bash isn't installed by default on BSD or Unix, just Linux, but I did take the time to point out I only did it to make sure it was a full load. I said I did a lot more.

Now, Safe Mode Windows? Seriously? I didn't know you could shut the GUI off on Windows and still run IIS... (That was a requirement remember, the machine needs to be able to function as a server in the manner proposed, and again, you can't configure the actual Kernel in Windows to strip it down, at all, and again, in Unix, you can not only do this, but actually put a Server into the Kernel and shut of everything else, and set the Kernel's IP Filter to drop everything that isn't standard Web traffic on Port 80, which is NOT possible in Windows).

So again, yes, Windows can not compete in that until Microsoft decides to allow you to configure the actual Kernel, and add to it what is needed. Oddly enough a lot of Porn sites do this from what I hear....They pay someone to come in and hack a web server into the Kernel and shut off everything else so that not only will the machine ONLY accept incoming web traffic on port 80, but even if someone had root access, what would they really do without any tools or commands that work?

You simply can't do this in Windows. It wasn't designed to allow this.

Also, why does Windows Server come with Windows Media Player? Seriously? something that requires a reboot to patch and is NOT needed, shouldn't be bundled in a Server OS....

I'll see if I can find the book I have where it started talking about the whole thing, because it's REALLY interesting... Imagine a machine that's up and running and ALL it has, is the Server required on it. No GUI, no drivers except the hardware that's actually in it, no USB, no way of using telnet, or the web, no email clients or IM clients built in that can't be uninstalled normally... Just a Kernel, and nothing else. I'd say that's as close to un-breakable as an OS is going to get in our life time. All of the things that make it that way, aren't even possible in Windows. Which again, means, Windows loses that one.

Now, go get one of those stress reliever balls Microsoft hands out at conventions I wonder WHY they hand those out? *Giggle*.

*EDIT*

I could have been so rich 10 years back if I'd thought to find a lawyer to sue Microsoft for "Double Clicking" which causes RSI. Lol, everyone seemed to be doing fine with 3 Button Mice, which Unix still expects you to have, but to be different, Microsoft made a "two button mouse" and invented "Double Clicking". Windows therefore causes RSI, and had I thought of that then, I'd probably be annoying people from my Island.

[SnugglesTheBear]

Bash isn't installed by default on BSD or Unix, just Linux, but I did take the time to point out I only did it to make sure it was a full load. I said I did a lot more.

I was really getting at the point of a fork bomb. Here is a shell script that accomplishes the same thing

#/bin/sh
$0 &
$0

But that is such a basic DoS. There are many many many more. Such as exploiting TCP persistent timers (yes this will work on windows and BSD and linux etc.)

Now, Safe Mode Windows? Seriously? I didn't know you could shut the GUI off on Windows and still run IIS...

That was to illustrate that windows doesn't NEED a GUI. One the subject of IIS, please refer to my comment on a core install or the manual that is located here http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...8WS.10%29.aspx

you can't configure the actual Kernel in Windows to strip it down, at all, and again, in Unix, you can not only do this, but actually put a Server into the Kernel and shut of everything else, and set the Kernel's IP Filter to drop everything that isn't standard Web traffic on Port 80, which is NOT possible in Windows

is possible see link above.

Also, you can't 'configure' the kernel in Windows, but you can 'patch' it. It takes a lot of reverse engineering in order to make your own kernel modules, but it is perfectly possible. For instance, in order to get raw sockets on a windows XP and up machine (I do believe this is when m$ disabled promiscuous mode in their API since it was a 'hacker tool' but I could be mistaken so don't quote me =P) you have to write, or install, your own kernel module. But yes, I will agree with you, I find *nix server configuring a much less painful experience, which is one of the reasons why I prefer it over windows, but that is my preference.

You simply can't do this in Windows. It wasn't designed to allow this.

Also, why does Windows Server come with Windows Media Player? Seriously? something that requires a reboot to patch and is NOT needed, shouldn't be bundled in a Server OS....

See link above

I'll see if I can find the book I have where it started talking about the whole thing, because it's REALLY interesting... Imagine a machine that's up and running and ALL it has, is the Server required on it. No GUI, no drivers except the hardware that's actually in it, no USB, no way of using telnet, or the web, no email clients or IM clients built in that can't be uninstalled normally... Just a Kernel, and nothing else. I'd say that's as close to un-breakable as an OS is going to get in our life time.

Kernel only interfaces with the hardware in order to allow people to utilize the hardware for some function or another. That does not mean the kernel is secure(see my reference to TCP persistent timing attacks which exploits a flaw in the TCP protocol to spawn many kernel timing events and causes the system to lock up). So you don't have a secure system, just a minimal system, that doesn't do much.... HOWEVER, I do also know where you are coming from. In order for sockstress to work, you need to have a service running. If you just have a kernel, you don't have a service running, just an interface, which all it really does is suck power. I will agree that an off machine is VERY secure though

And btw ...I miss Tiger Shark and his valuable knowledge that puts to shame most of the self crowned know it alls here and I am well aware of the reasons he no longer visits this site.

sooo again, I am missing some drama here. Who is Tiger Shark and where can I extract his valuable knowledge?.... or am I one of the reasons why he no longer visits?